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[Music]

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hello and welcome back to liminal frames

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i'm your host nathan and i'm joined with

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my co-host here exo academian

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exo how's it going

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it's going well my friend looking

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forward to tonight's episode always a

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highlight of my week when we get

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together to have these discussions

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same here and uh for those of you who

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don't know i know we've said this before

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but

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exo and i feel really fortunate because

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not only do we get to do this show

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together but we have the

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rare

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uh

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good gift of living nearby so we

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actually can get together in person

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and we try to do that uh every other

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week

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eventually we're going to do as the

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weather gets nicer where you're in

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trying to or planning to do uh kind of

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an outdoor recording so we'll have a

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we'll use nature as our studio at some

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point and give that a try are you

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looking forward to that

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i am and you know you bringing this up

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reminded me of a couple episodes ago we

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talked about synchronicity

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i think this is a perfect example you

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know i

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i don't think it's um a stretch to say

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that

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we both feel like each other are the

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best person to do this show with

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and considering ufo twitter is as a

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global you know

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cyberscape the fact that we both live in

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the exact same area you know within 20

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minutes of each other kind of thing

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is pretty shocking and i would say it's

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a synchronistic

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event for sure

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100 percent uh agree to that

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so anyway it's uh it's incredibly cool

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and we've really had a great time with

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the show and thank all of you for

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listening

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along and participating with us wherever

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you happen to

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listen to the show whether that's on

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youtube or your podcast platform of

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choice

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so the topic for this week

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we have called

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tools for analysis

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and when we talk about tools for

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analysis we're going to take

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this through kind of a progressive

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journey

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on this episode

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and

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initially what i want to do is start by

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thinking about the ways in which

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you and i as individuals approach any

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experience that we have in in our lives

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and so

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how is it that we

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view and relate with experiences

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generally

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what are the things that we bring to

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bear

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on those moments

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and then as we go through the course of

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this episode we're going to kind of

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widen the

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scope of tools that are used to evaluate

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experience from

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the narrow

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at the individual level to

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the broader

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kind of tools that we have heard about

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and see about in academia

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and are in in our culture

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sort of socially

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so with that said the

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you know the kind of the first order

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things that i think about from

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uh from perspective

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are the things that i'll speak only as

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myself here the things that shape the

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way i look at the world and the way i

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look at experience and these are factors

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that i had in many uh sort of ways zero

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control over

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whatsoever so i was born in

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north america united states uh i'm a

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male

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family you know i was born into kind of

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a nuclear family mom and dad and

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brothers and sisters

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these are things that i didn't choose i

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just at least

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from from one perspective we can talk

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about others but things that i just kind

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of stumbled into

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uh the situation that our family had

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sort of economically

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uh

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our stature within our society all these

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things were things that just came along

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with me

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kind of arriving on the scene

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and

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you grow up in whatever sort of set of

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conditions that you find yourself

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it's not that you're going to class and

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they're telling you these kinds of

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things

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you are absorbing them day in and day

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out through the interactions with which

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you have with your parents or caregivers

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or your siblings if you have them or

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your neighbors if you have them or your

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school

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you're just absorbing this content

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constantly and

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these elements

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are

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reinforced or

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they are uh suppressed or in some ways

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even eliminated depending on the kind of

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environmental conditions that we find

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ourselves in and so that you know for me

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is that is that individual perspective

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that in many ways

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if if we approach a situation

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we can't readily even see it it's it's

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almost like it's literally the lenses

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over our eyes

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not glasses just you know the film and

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that we see things through and we have

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to pause and sort of step back and think

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okay

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how am i looking at this and how is it

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colored by

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these factors of which many of which i

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had very little control over

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whatsoever so that that's how i think of

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it as sort of like this inner individual

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uh perspective on lived experience

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generally

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but exile has kind of went at your

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thoughts too on this you know how do you

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view

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those things which are

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sort of instinctual or closely held that

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that form that uh hidden in a way

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uh a perspective of our lives

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yeah it's fascinating and as you say

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it's it's kind of insidious in a way

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because we we're we're not aware of it

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usually um and prior to the 20th century

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it wasn't even discussed really at all

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it wasn't even recognized

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um and to a large degree

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when

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the church kind of ruled the day

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uh the notion was

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you were born into a certain you know

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experience in life because that's what

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god willed

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uh and in in some you know eastern

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countries india and whatnot with the

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caste system

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suddenly it was you know or sometimes it

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was you know you were born like this

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because of what you did in a previous

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lifetime kind of thing

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some sort of notion of karma

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uh so

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yeah it's it's it was an important

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notion when this would when this was

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recognized that our lives are shaped by

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all these factors that as you say

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from the typical perspective anyway the

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conventional perspective we have no

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control over

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where we're born who were born in you

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know to which families

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which uh economies which economic

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structures

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uh which um which dominant religion is

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in place in the place you were born you

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know uh i think

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one of the things that most struck me

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about fundamentalist christianity

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when i kind of saw it for what it was is

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that it had so much in common with

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fundamentalist islam you know they have

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more in common with each other

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than they do with the more progressive

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arms of their own religion you know and

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again that comes down to worldview

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perspectives and

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levels of development and

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um religion sort of gets is an

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epiphenomena of you know consciousness

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novels

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but it's also interesting because

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when you look at the field that we're

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interested in in the ufo phenomenon and

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how does

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in paranormality how do these different

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uh you know aspects of our personhood

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impact that you know like for instance

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one thing i've noticed in looking at my

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stats right for my podcast and this is

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true for pretty much all the podcasts

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thankfully we have some women holding

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down the fort that have their own shows

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and are on shows and whatnot but

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generally this is a male dominant field

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right of interest and

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that's interesting in itself right uh to

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pay attention to that and therefore how

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much is the

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how much of the conversation is missing

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you know half of the uh you know the

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universe in terms of reflection because

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we don't have enough women giving their

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perspective on uh what's going on

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um

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and even things like

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when i think about ethnicity you know

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you think about

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um

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[Music]

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in some ways the others that are

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encountered the descriptions are quite

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white centric you know the kind of like

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aryan looking

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nordic types um you know some have even

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suggested there's a kind of subtle

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racism there like what is going on there

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why is that the case uh or is it a case

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of us seeing what we want to see uh is

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there something more to that what could

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be the reason behind that uh you know

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and then and then also many people will

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also point out that this field is

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american-centric right that there are

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some people even go so far as to say why

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do all the ufo sightings and all the

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abductions have in america happen in

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america not elsewhere we know it's not

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that simple

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but i i see their point that um

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maybe the way that we have a frame

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around us that we're born into

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uh makes us look at these things a

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certain way

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all of these things are really

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fascinating to think about even

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something as like

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arbitrary as birth order right you and i

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have talked about this with our kids you

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know and and and

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each of us having siblings as well

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and it's amazing how consistently

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that does play a role in personality

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development you know and that is the

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most arbitrary of things you know what

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birth order you came in and yet it

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really does seem to have across the

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board

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impact on who you become and and your

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personality so

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it is fascinating and i think one of the

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reasons why i think it's a good idea to

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get into this was this was your idea but

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i think it's a great idea is because

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these different elements are not often

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brought to bear when it comes to

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thinking about the ufo phenomenon

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right and we

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00:10:26,630 --> 00:10:25,040
so easily

290
00:10:29,590 --> 00:10:26,640
i think arrive on the scene and just

291
00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:29,600
sort of think that

292
00:10:33,509 --> 00:10:32,560
the way a situation is being described

293
00:10:38,550 --> 00:10:33,519
or

294
00:10:40,389 --> 00:10:38,560
that's

295
00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:40,399
just sort of on face the way that it

296
00:10:43,590 --> 00:10:42,000
actually is

297
00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:43,600
and we we forget the fact that it's

298
00:10:46,389 --> 00:10:45,760
being mediated to us

299
00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:46,399
through

300
00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:49,920
experience and background and

301
00:10:54,870 --> 00:10:52,800
and history and and and how they are

302
00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:54,880
telling us this experience and relaying

303
00:11:00,870 --> 00:10:57,920
it to us is is not free of

304
00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:00,880
that baggage that they bring and you

305
00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:02,560
know one thing i want to touch on too

306
00:11:07,670 --> 00:11:05,440
because i i while i well i

307
00:11:08,949 --> 00:11:07,680
really think it's valuable for us to be

308
00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:08,959
able to

309
00:11:12,829 --> 00:11:12,160
see these various factors that influence

310
00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:12,839
our

311
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:14,959
perspective and i think it's important

312
00:11:19,030 --> 00:11:17,040
to try to be as best we can be objective

313
00:11:22,630 --> 00:11:19,040
about them and even challenge challenge

314
00:11:25,110 --> 00:11:22,640
them where we can i would also say that

315
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:25,120
there is a value

316
00:11:29,110 --> 00:11:27,440
in being in finding some level of peace

317
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:29,120
with the things that you you cannot

318
00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:30,240
control

319
00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:33,360
so we we can in many ways

320
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:35,360
look at these factors and

321
00:11:39,750 --> 00:11:38,560
and fight against them our entire lives

322
00:11:44,069 --> 00:11:39,760
and

323
00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:44,079
kind of meaningful

324
00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:45,680
uh sort of piece

325
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:47,120
and i think there is something there is

326
00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:49,600
a point at which we have to say

327
00:11:54,790 --> 00:11:52,480
whether whether i like it or not this is

328
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:54,800
a part of me and it's a part of me that

329
00:11:58,870 --> 00:11:56,720
i have to be honest with

330
00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:58,880
and even if that honesty sometimes might

331
00:12:02,790 --> 00:11:59,680
mean

332
00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:02,800
i'm i'm biased towards it

333
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:04,240
you know but but i think being able to

334
00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:07,120
at least recognize that uh on some level

335
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:09,760
is going to be a healthy way to approach

336
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:11,519
these factors

337
00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:13,440
i also don't think it's good for us to

338
00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:15,360
necessarily although i think it's easy

339
00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:17,760
for us to do this now i don't think it's

340
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:20,240
necessarily good for us to go around

341
00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:22,079
trying to

342
00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:25,360
militantly identify the baggage or the

343
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:28,320
the various lenses of those around us

344
00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:30,480
and call them to task on those things i

345
00:12:35,269 --> 00:12:32,639
think it's important that we

346
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:35,279
really try to describe and and educate

347
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:37,600
and explain how these factors do shape

348
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:39,200
our experience

349
00:12:43,430 --> 00:12:42,079
but it's not up to us necessarily to go

350
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:43,440
after everyone and everyone's

351
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:45,440
perspective and say well you think that

352
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:48,079
because you have xyz

353
00:12:52,629 --> 00:12:50,720
issues those issues can be present but i

354
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:52,639
think there is a better way for us to

355
00:12:57,430 --> 00:12:54,800
engage in a conversation than to start

356
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:57,440
there uh if you will

357
00:13:00,949 --> 00:12:59,279
i agree and i think

358
00:13:02,710 --> 00:13:00,959
we both kind of hinted at this and it's

359
00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:02,720
worth pointing out and that is um

360
00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:03,920
because i have two thoughts the first

361
00:13:07,269 --> 00:13:05,120
thought is

362
00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:07,279
as we both kind of hinted at already the

363
00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:10,160
conventional thinking is that all of

364
00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:12,000
these are arbitrary right where you're

365
00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:12,880
born

366
00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:17,360
know all those circumstances we see the

367
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:19,760
conventional understanding is that

368
00:13:23,590 --> 00:13:22,240
is something you have no say in

369
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,600
of course we

370
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:25,279
should acknowledge especially in this

371
00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:26,639
field that there are a lot of

372
00:13:31,110 --> 00:13:29,040
experiencers who have

373
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:31,120
uh and not just experiences in the ufo

374
00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:32,639
phenomenon but even people who have had

375
00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:35,200
near-death experiences and people who

376
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:38,240
remember past lives who suggested we do

377
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:40,320
actually play a role even if we've

378
00:13:42,949 --> 00:13:41,680
forgotten

379
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:42,959
in

380
00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:49,040
ultimately the goal is the growth of our

381
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:50,320
souls

382
00:13:53,670 --> 00:13:51,440
not

383
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:53,680
comfort basically

384
00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:55,680
now i understand

385
00:13:59,590 --> 00:13:57,519
some people are wary of that because it

386
00:14:01,910 --> 00:13:59,600
can seem dismissive of people who are in

387
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:01,920
very difficult circumstances and again

388
00:14:05,910 --> 00:14:03,600
you can almost end up in a kind of caste

389
00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:05,920
system kind of thinking

390
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:08,320
i think what we try to do on this show

391
00:14:11,189 --> 00:14:09,680
we do this as individuals and i think

392
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:11,199
we're trying to promote this in our show

393
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:12,880
is sort of a balanced perspective

394
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:14,480
whether it's where it's not always

395
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,279
either or it's it's both and these are

396
00:14:21,189 --> 00:14:18,880
complex issues

397
00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:21,199
we don't want to uh be dismissive of

398
00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:23,360
people who have difficult circumstances

399
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:25,040
and say well you signed up for it so you

400
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,720
must be i must have a good reason even

401
00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:28,320
if you're not aware of it

402
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:30,720
that's not hugely helpful at the same

403
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:32,800
time i think we do have to be aware that

404
00:14:37,509 --> 00:14:35,040
the conventional thinking that

405
00:14:39,509 --> 00:14:37,519
it's completely arbitrary might also not

406
00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:39,519
be the full picture and experience or

407
00:14:42,629 --> 00:14:41,199
narrative certainly seem to suggest

408
00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:42,639
that's the case

409
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:44,720
uh and the last thing i would add and

410
00:14:47,829 --> 00:14:46,800
you touched on it already

411
00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:47,839
um

412
00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:49,680
that sometimes the people who are the

413
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:52,560
most triumphant the the best examples of

414
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:54,639
humanity are the people who've come from

415
00:14:59,350 --> 00:14:57,040
the most difficult circumstances so

416
00:15:03,110 --> 00:14:59,360
sometimes that kind of you know

417
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:03,120
fire can give birth to a phoenix that

418
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:04,800
becomes you know

419
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:07,120
a paramount player in moving human

420
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:10,000
consciousness forward so again while we

421
00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:12,800
do want to be sympathetic empathetic

422
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:14,000
help people who have difficult

423
00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:16,160
circumstances we also need to remember

424
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:18,480
ultimately that sometimes people in

425
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:21,120
difficult circumstances become

426
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:23,199
you know amazing examples of what

427
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:26,079
humanity can become and

428
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:27,839
so it's not again it's not a simple

429
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:28,720
answer

430
00:15:32,790 --> 00:15:30,480
we want to be aware of these issues but

431
00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:32,800
also not reduce people to just these

432
00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:37,430
and i think to

433
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:39,120
whether

434
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:40,399
we sort of

435
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:42,320
align with perspective

436
00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:43,680
that

437
00:15:48,069 --> 00:15:46,160
we chose this kind of life uh you know

438
00:15:52,069 --> 00:15:48,079
before we were born

439
00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:53,910
to me at least it's it's not as

440
00:15:56,629 --> 00:15:55,360
important if you

441
00:15:58,949 --> 00:15:56,639
believe that

442
00:16:00,069 --> 00:15:58,959
i think what is important is to

443
00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:00,079
when you look at it from this

444
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:02,160
perspective that there are so many

445
00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:03,920
things that shape who we are that we had

446
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:06,480
no real choosing in per se

447
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:08,639
at least at least in the way in which we

448
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:11,120
think about them in our present moment

449
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:12,800
since you know even if you buy into the

450
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:15,680
narrative that we chose it before now we

451
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,680
many of us have amnesia or whatever that

452
00:16:21,829 --> 00:16:19,680
was right so so there are many things

453
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:21,839
that that make me

454
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:25,279
that i in in a very real sense did not

455
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:26,399
select

456
00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:28,000
but when you understand

457
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:30,079
that about yourself

458
00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:31,920
then you can easily

459
00:16:35,509 --> 00:16:33,920
relay that to everyone else in your

460
00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:35,519
experience in your lived experience and

461
00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:37,360
your relational experience

462
00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:40,240
and understanding that leads to so much

463
00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:41,519
charity

464
00:16:44,949 --> 00:16:42,480
you know

465
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:44,959
for us to not go after someone who

466
00:16:49,269 --> 00:16:46,880
disagrees with us

467
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,279
you know and and engage in a kind of

468
00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:50,880
vitriolic

469
00:16:54,710 --> 00:16:53,040
warfare with them

470
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:54,720
when we look at this from the

471
00:16:57,990 --> 00:16:56,399
perspective of

472
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:58,000
you know all of the things that shape

473
00:17:01,910 --> 00:16:59,279
who we are

474
00:17:04,309 --> 00:17:01,920
so many of them we didn't choose

475
00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:04,319
then it makes us way more charitable to

476
00:17:09,110 --> 00:17:07,199
those around us and i think gives us a

477
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:09,120
greater sense of wisdom

478
00:17:12,870 --> 00:17:11,280
and grace when it comes to the different

479
00:17:14,789 --> 00:17:12,880
perspectives that we're going to

480
00:17:15,909 --> 00:17:14,799
encounter in our life and let's not

481
00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:15,919
forget

482
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:19,280
that difference of perspective

483
00:17:22,870 --> 00:17:21,520
enriches our own perspective enriches

484
00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:22,880
our own

485
00:17:28,309 --> 00:17:26,559
experience even those perspectives that

486
00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:28,319
may be at odds with the things that we

487
00:17:32,950 --> 00:17:30,720
hold dear

488
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:32,960
yeah and i think sometimes when we

489
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:34,960
go to war with people like you like

490
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:36,320
you're hinting at there when it becomes

491
00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:38,559
vitriolic uh

492
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:40,320
often what we're fighting is our own

493
00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:43,039
subconscious you know because we

494
00:17:47,830 --> 00:17:45,760
may be projecting and rejecting and

495
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:47,840
shaming something that we used to be you

496
00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:49,200
know i've seen

497
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:50,799
people who've come out of

498
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:52,480
cultic backgrounds or come at a

499
00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:54,240
religious fundamentalism

500
00:17:58,230 --> 00:17:56,240
be the most you know

501
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:58,240
triumphant warriors against that kind of

502
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:01,440
thinking right um but in many ways what

503
00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:03,760
i think they're doing is uh kind of

504
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:05,679
penance for what they used to be you

505
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:07,919
know and when i think the the better

506
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:10,880
response is charity like you said

507
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:12,320
and hopefully

508
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:14,240
some understanding that says if i was

509
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:16,320
there at one point surely i should have

510
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:17,840
some charity for the person who's there

511
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,360
now because again

512
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:21,520
a lot of that just happens to be where

513
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:23,440
they grew up who they happened to listen

514
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:26,080
to what books they stumbled across

515
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:28,480
you know when people are you know thrown

516
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:30,240
into the world thrown in into

517
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:31,679
incarnation

518
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:33,679
and suddenly become adults you know

519
00:18:37,029 --> 00:18:35,200
pretty quickly and then trying to just

520
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:37,039
make sense of life and get through it

521
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:39,360
and for so many people it's that's

522
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:41,440
that's difficult alone

523
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:43,600
to try and form some overarching

524
00:18:47,270 --> 00:18:45,679
narrative about what it all means even

525
00:18:48,789 --> 00:18:47,280
when that's changing generation to

526
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:48,799
generation

527
00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:50,080
you know people

528
00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:51,120
tend to

529
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:53,120
grab for whatever happens to be right in

530
00:18:56,789 --> 00:18:55,200
front of them you know and and we all do

531
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:56,799
that and that's why you know how can we

532
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:57,840
not have

533
00:19:01,750 --> 00:18:59,760
a charitable attitude towards someone

534
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:01,760
across the other side of the world who

535
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:03,760
maybe sees us as the enemy but they only

536
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:05,280
see us as the enemy based on where

537
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:06,960
they're born and we do the same towards

538
00:19:10,549 --> 00:19:08,480
them you know and

539
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:10,559
um and sometimes when it comes to like

540
00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:12,640
different fundamentalisms we are kind of

541
00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:15,120
naive and hypocritical about

542
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:17,200
favoring one kind of fundamentalism over

543
00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:19,200
another rather than recognizing their

544
00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:21,280
two iterations of the same

545
00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:23,840
uh basic mindset or basic developmental

546
00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:24,799
level

547
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:26,400
so yeah these are all things to keep in

548
00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:29,600
mind um when we move forward

549
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:32,320
right and and and to apply it to

550
00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:34,000
to our interest you know to the interest

551
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:36,480
in ufos and and uh the phenomenon and

552
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:38,080
paranormality

553
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:41,039
you know we are dealing with

554
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:43,280
this otherness

555
00:19:47,350 --> 00:19:45,360
and otherness

556
00:19:49,110 --> 00:19:47,360
you know seems exotic when we talk about

557
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:49,120
it in the context of ufos and the

558
00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:51,280
phenomenon but otherness is around us

559
00:19:58,390 --> 00:19:55,590
if you're in a relationship with anyone

560
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:58,400
you're in a relationship with another

561
00:20:03,909 --> 00:20:01,600
not of yourself and so these are tools

562
00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:03,919
this is an awareness that

563
00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:05,120
impacts

564
00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:07,840
the way in which you understand

565
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:10,480
your your life and the life

566
00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:12,640
that that will come at you

567
00:20:19,029 --> 00:20:16,880
from areas expected and unexpected

568
00:20:22,630 --> 00:20:19,039
and so i think too with uh with the

569
00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:25,110
we are bringing our whole selves

570
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:26,720
to this task

571
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:28,320
of understanding

572
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:29,280
and

573
00:20:32,789 --> 00:20:30,880
as much as we

574
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:32,799
i think like to

575
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:35,039
lionize our science

576
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:37,520
and and kind of say

577
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:40,159
science leads the way and it's it's very

578
00:20:44,070 --> 00:20:41,520
clean and

579
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:44,080
and clear-headed and and

580
00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:47,440
rational highly rational

581
00:20:52,149 --> 00:20:49,760
science is made of people

582
00:20:55,110 --> 00:20:52,159
it's an obvious thing to say but every

583
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:55,120
scientist brings to their science

584
00:20:58,549 --> 00:20:57,600
these aspects of themselves

585
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:58,559
and so

586
00:21:01,830 --> 00:21:00,720
you know this is an important subject to

587
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:01,840
touch on

588
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:04,400
even though i think at first glance it

589
00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:07,440
may seem as if it's not a helpful

590
00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:09,679
way to approach the phenomenon but when

591
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:11,360
you really step back and look at it it's

592
00:21:14,830 --> 00:21:12,720
fundamental

593
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:14,840
to our understanding of what this

594
00:21:19,270 --> 00:21:17,520
is yeah and i would add that i've

595
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:19,280
mentioned several times now

596
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:21,760
noticing this historical trend towards

597
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:23,360
pendulum swinging

598
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:25,600
um you know in many ways the scientific

599
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:27,520
revolution became about

600
00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:29,600
at first surviving the church right try

601
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:31,840
not to get burned at the stake by

602
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:34,080
you know getting accused of you know

603
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:35,840
questioning the church on anything how

604
00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:37,600
dare you question you know

605
00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:39,840
the astronomical order uh you might get

606
00:21:42,630 --> 00:21:41,200
burned at the stake

607
00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:42,640
to suddenly

608
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,200
being handed the new reigns of the

609
00:21:49,590 --> 00:21:47,360
priesthood so to speak when science sort

610
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:49,600
of took over because of technological

611
00:21:53,430 --> 00:21:51,760
success and then it became its role to

612
00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:53,440
stamp out the church right there have

613
00:21:55,270 --> 00:21:54,400
been

614
00:21:57,669 --> 00:21:55,280
many

615
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:57,679
leaders directors of various scientific

616
00:22:02,230 --> 00:21:59,919
institutes and whatnot in psychology and

617
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:02,240
in the natural sciences

618
00:22:06,789 --> 00:22:04,720
in physics who basically like publicly

619
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:06,799
said their their goal is to stamp out

620
00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:08,480
religion right because they see that as

621
00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:09,760
the enemy now

622
00:22:14,789 --> 00:22:12,400
when again that's in that case it's not

623
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:14,799
subconscious projection it's collective

624
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:16,640
unconscious projection that we are

625
00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:17,679
basically

626
00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:20,480
judging and condemning who we used to be

627
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:21,200
and

628
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:23,120
again thinking the new thing is shiny

629
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:24,880
and new and we should grab onto that and

630
00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:27,039
it has nothing wrong with it

631
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:28,240
the the other

632
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:29,840
aspect i want to add too when it comes

633
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:30,880
to

634
00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:36,400
in many ways i think the reason why ufos

635
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:38,400
became a big thing in the 20th century

636
00:22:44,950 --> 00:22:41,360
was because they were allowed right

637
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:44,960
because in in western civilization

638
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:47,360
where technology is the shiny object

639
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:49,200
everyone wants

640
00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:50,640
and we see that as the promise of our

641
00:22:55,909 --> 00:22:53,760
future when these technological objects

642
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:55,919
manifest in the sky a western

643
00:23:01,110 --> 00:22:59,120
civilization can can say yes this looks

644
00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:01,120
exciting what's this about

645
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:04,000
whereas now with all the wu with all the

646
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:06,240
high strangeness we recognize that

647
00:23:10,470 --> 00:23:08,480
indigenous cultures in australia might

648
00:23:12,390 --> 00:23:10,480
have been dealing with these same

649
00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:12,400
beings but in a very different way and

650
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:14,159
they wouldn't consider it technology

651
00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:16,640
really or shamanic cultures right same

652
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:18,000
thing dealing with non-human

653
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:19,520
intelligence for

654
00:23:23,190 --> 00:23:21,039
eons

655
00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:23,200
but framing it very differently so it's

656
00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:26,080
not even that as i said earlier all the

657
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:27,840
ufo sightings happen to be in north

658
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:30,640
america or whatever it can also be that

659
00:23:35,270 --> 00:23:33,120
our expectations are

660
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:35,280
the way we frame things what we get

661
00:23:38,549 --> 00:23:37,440
excited about what we think is even

662
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:38,559
possible

663
00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:40,720
shapes both what we see and how we

664
00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:43,120
interpret what we see so

665
00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:45,360
again when we've got the

666
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:47,600
the fact that our consciousness seems to

667
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:49,440
play a role in how this manifests in

668
00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:51,440
some way then that might even more be

669
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:53,520
the case but all these factors are

670
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:55,360
important to think about especially when

671
00:24:00,549 --> 00:23:57,440
we're talking about paranormality high

672
00:24:02,789 --> 00:24:00,559
strangeness and ufos

673
00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:02,799
right very much so what do we make room

674
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:04,640
for right what do we

675
00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:08,240
uh exclude and and then allow in our

676
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:09,919
sort of perceptual

677
00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:12,000
awareness and i think so as we've talked

678
00:24:15,190 --> 00:24:13,840
about kind of that the individual

679
00:24:17,669 --> 00:24:15,200
factors

680
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:17,679
uh that kind of shape who we are

681
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:19,679
directly or indirectly

682
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:21,440
we also of course have very strong

683
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:24,240
cultural factors that shape who we are

684
00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:26,159
and we are all

685
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:28,320
people of culture

686
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:30,640
even if even if you lived with a very

687
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,640
isolated situation just a small

688
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:34,080
farmhouse or something you're gonna live

689
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:37,039
in a culture of a family uh presumably

690
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:39,200
but i think anybody or most everyone in

691
00:24:45,909 --> 00:24:41,840
the world today is is embedded in a

692
00:24:49,029 --> 00:24:45,919
culture and those cultures uh serve us

693
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:49,039
and and define and shape the way in

694
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:52,000
which we understand reality

695
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:53,520
around us what is

696
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:56,080
normative inexperience what is

697
00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:57,679
non-normative

698
00:25:02,070 --> 00:24:59,919
all of that is determined in many ways

699
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:02,080
by our cultural

700
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:03,440
loo

701
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:06,720
in the past humans have been well served

702
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:09,360
at least functionally

703
00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:13,120
by kind of very elaborate mythologies

704
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:15,520
that we look back on they're very much

705
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:18,880
uh sort of highly anthropomorphized and

706
00:25:24,549 --> 00:25:22,000
uh you know many have this you know

707
00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:24,559
imaginative broad spectrum of

708
00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:27,440
this pantheon of gods and goddesses kind

709
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:30,400
of that are involved and engaged in our

710
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:32,640
lives either in indirectly or maybe

711
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:34,640
dispassionately and we're just kind of

712
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:36,240
like dealing with whatever antics

713
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:38,400
they're up to but these stories

714
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:40,960
in the past in our human history

715
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:42,880
really helped to shape the ways in which

716
00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:45,440
our ancestors navigated the world and

717
00:25:49,110 --> 00:25:47,360
navigated the seasons and navigated

718
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:49,120
relationships and

719
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:51,600
birth and death uh all of these things

720
00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:53,120
were impacted by

721
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:54,960
the the stories and also the stories of

722
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:56,480
the stars

723
00:26:02,310 --> 00:25:59,200
which took such a huge role

724
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:02,320
in the minds of of our ancestors uh

725
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:04,720
gazing up at that canopy and and and

726
00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:06,960
knowing that that cycle

727
00:26:11,190 --> 00:26:09,360
every day and every year was was

728
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:11,200
correlated with certain

729
00:26:17,510 --> 00:26:14,640
activity and so for so long the those

730
00:26:18,950 --> 00:26:17,520
narratives served us extremely well

731
00:26:21,029 --> 00:26:18,960
and i think

732
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:21,039
you know we in in our current day and

733
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:23,039
age we didn't look back at that and

734
00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:26,000
think oh that's you know so barbaric or

735
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:28,000
um how naive

736
00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:30,960
but we forget that the

737
00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:32,880
the explanatory power of those

738
00:26:38,310 --> 00:26:35,440
narratives and the way in which it

739
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:38,320
captured imaginations and just the

740
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:42,480
inertia of of that kind of cultural

741
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:44,640
uh mix that people were born into it's

742
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:47,120
really hard to shake and and just

743
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:49,039
looking back on it and seeing those

744
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:50,960
kinds of empires and mythologies and

745
00:26:54,710 --> 00:26:53,200
narratives rise and fall

746
00:26:56,710 --> 00:26:54,720
again we still always have a position

747
00:26:58,310 --> 00:26:56,720
now where we think well we've we've kind

748
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:58,320
of we've kind of emerged from that and

749
00:27:03,269 --> 00:27:00,559
we're not going to go through that again

750
00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:03,279
but the reality is we we have our own

751
00:27:09,190 --> 00:27:06,320
mythologies now we have our own new

752
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:09,200
narratives that that surround us and our

753
00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:11,520
culture and tell us

754
00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:13,360
directly and indirectly

755
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:15,440
what things are

756
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:17,200
are part of normal experience and what

757
00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:18,640
things are not

758
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:20,559
and of course science has come into the

759
00:27:24,149 --> 00:27:22,559
into into the picture now as well but

760
00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:24,159
how do you think about

761
00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:26,640
uh the ways in which our

762
00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:28,799
our narrative frameworks have changed

763
00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:33,909
yeah it's interesting too because i

764
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:36,720
would say that it's not even necessarily

765
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:39,440
uh a straight line so we you know it's

766
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:41,120
not a linear process so it's not so much

767
00:27:44,870 --> 00:27:42,960
that we've left the past and we're

768
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:44,880
moving in a straight line away from it

769
00:27:49,269 --> 00:27:46,799
but more like a spiral kind of process

770
00:27:50,710 --> 00:27:49,279
where we tend to come back around and

771
00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:50,720
part of the role of the collective

772
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:52,559
unconscious is that it

773
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:55,360
it it sort of the shadow that rises up

774
00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:57,600
in us as a collective

775
00:28:01,029 --> 00:27:58,720
makes

776
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:01,039
us aware even if it's kind of in

777
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:03,600
symbolic language which we eventually

778
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:06,240
incorporate into our world view

779
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:07,840
these aspects that we've left behind

780
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:09,520
that we need to bring back in but

781
00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:11,440
hopefully we bring it back in in a more

782
00:28:15,430 --> 00:28:13,039
sophisticated way

783
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:15,440
we re-include what we've objected to

784
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,399
before

785
00:28:20,549 --> 00:28:18,480
uh so we're both as i've said many times

786
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:20,559
transcending and including ideally is

787
00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:22,240
what we should do that's the that's the

788
00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:23,760
healthy process

789
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:25,840
and when we don't do that i think the

790
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:27,520
collective unconscious

791
00:28:35,830 --> 00:28:32,320
uh puts up a stink so to speak and makes

792
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,870
yeah i think that

793
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:40,950
again because people have difficult

794
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:43,120
lives in many ways and

795
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:45,600
life seems so short for many people

796
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:47,440
um it's not like

797
00:28:52,789 --> 00:28:50,480
like you and i like you pointed out we

798
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:52,799
uh compared to the rest of most people

799
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,720
in the world we're incredibly well off

800
00:28:57,350 --> 00:28:56,640
right we have so much privilege because

801
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:57,360
of

802
00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:58,559
our gender

803
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:01,440
uh we're both caucasian we you know both

804
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:02,960
live in america

805
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:03,840
um

806
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:07,120
upper middle class so all these things

807
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:08,720
play in our favor and it means that we

808
00:29:11,510 --> 00:29:10,640
can sit around and host a podcast like

809
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:11,520
this

810
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:14,000
uh you know many people just in parts of

811
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:15,120
the world just don't have this

812
00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:16,960
opportunity for many many reasons the

813
00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:19,440
technology the time the resources

814
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:21,600
the educational background all of that

815
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:24,000
that uh we we can count ourselves lucky

816
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:26,080
to and privileged to have part of our

817
00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:31,669
because we're

818
00:29:35,590 --> 00:29:33,279
trying to make our through our way

819
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:35,600
through lives as individuals

820
00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:36,960
we just

821
00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:39,679
sort of ascribe to others to authority

822
00:29:44,389 --> 00:29:41,840
and say tell me what is reality you know

823
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:44,399
tell me what is in that frame of pause

824
00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:46,960
of the possible right and we inherit

825
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:48,720
that through our educational system and

826
00:29:53,190 --> 00:29:51,600
whatnot um so again what's what's

827
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:53,200
interesting here is that

828
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:54,960
even though it shifts over time the

829
00:29:59,830 --> 00:29:57,440
individual often doesn't

830
00:30:01,430 --> 00:29:59,840
have much say in that because they are

831
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:01,440
basically a product of their cultural

832
00:30:04,149 --> 00:30:02,720
framework

833
00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:04,159
and what's interesting with the ufo

834
00:30:09,029 --> 00:30:06,320
phenomenon is sometimes it's people who

835
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:09,039
have these really anomalous experiences

836
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:11,520
who have no choice but to question the

837
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:13,120
conventional narrative about what's

838
00:30:17,029 --> 00:30:15,200
impos what's possible because they've

839
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:17,039
experienced it directly

840
00:30:21,350 --> 00:30:19,600
and if you spend any time in this field

841
00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:21,360
what's interesting is if you haven't

842
00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:23,200
yourself had that experience you very

843
00:30:26,789 --> 00:30:25,520
quickly meet people who have

844
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:26,799
and then

845
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:29,520
we become a very unique subgroup subset

846
00:30:33,750 --> 00:30:32,159
of the society at large

847
00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:33,760
who are aware of these

848
00:30:38,149 --> 00:30:36,080
data sets that don't play well with the

849
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:38,159
conventional narrative and that's what

850
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:40,080
it means to be part of this uh this

851
00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:46,389
you made me think of something that

852
00:30:49,990 --> 00:30:48,559
i mean when i'd say it it's so obvious

853
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:50,000
but i don't think about it very often

854
00:30:54,549 --> 00:30:51,600
but when we look back at the past and

855
00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:54,559
look at the the lives of of those who've

856
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:56,159
gone before us

857
00:31:01,269 --> 00:30:59,039
we have no access or very little access

858
00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:01,279
very limited access to the inner lives

859
00:31:04,230 --> 00:31:02,640
of those people

860
00:31:06,789 --> 00:31:04,240
and and we really are looking at

861
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:06,799
societal shifts and change

862
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:08,399
and so you know you bring up a good

863
00:31:12,389 --> 00:31:10,080
point with the

864
00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:12,399
the very sort of radical nature of

865
00:31:17,029 --> 00:31:14,399
phenomenal experience

866
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:17,039
and how it impacts individuals

867
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:19,519
uh you know and when we are when

868
00:31:24,549 --> 00:31:22,320
those stories are shared with us

869
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,559
they

870
00:31:28,149 --> 00:31:26,640
we have this amazing ability to sort of

871
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:28,159
internalize

872
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:30,320
and and adopt

873
00:31:35,669 --> 00:31:34,000
language into our own inner life so even

874
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:35,679
though you you know i may not have had

875
00:31:39,350 --> 00:31:37,120
the experience you have had by you

876
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:39,360
telling me your experience i i can live

877
00:31:43,509 --> 00:31:41,440
it in in a way

878
00:31:46,389 --> 00:31:43,519
it's an approximate way

879
00:31:48,789 --> 00:31:46,399
but but that entire process

880
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:48,799
is in many ways kind of invisible from

881
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:50,799
the standpoint of history

882
00:31:56,230 --> 00:31:53,360
that when you take a broad sweeping view

883
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:56,240
of what has gone before us

884
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:58,000
these experiences at the individual

885
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:01,200
level are happening all the time

886
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:02,640
and throughout our history throughout

887
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:04,880
our societies and civilizations

888
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:08,000
but they emerge as societal change in

889
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:09,840
retrospective

890
00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:10,720
you know

891
00:32:14,950 --> 00:32:12,399
evaluation

892
00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:14,960
and so you know it's just an interesting

893
00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:17,519
for me at least a way to think about

894
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:19,360
what's happening now

895
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,960
with the ufo phenomenon and how we may

896
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:24,240
perceive it

897
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:26,720
in the future looking back to now

898
00:32:31,750 --> 00:32:29,279
and not necessarily seeing the the inner

899
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:31,760
lives and inner experiences of those

900
00:32:35,909 --> 00:32:32,880
that have

901
00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:35,919
really had that firsthand moment with it

902
00:32:39,029 --> 00:32:37,600
but but seeing it more so as that

903
00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:39,039
societal

904
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:41,039
shift and change

905
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:42,399
yeah and on top of that if you think

906
00:32:45,509 --> 00:32:44,399
about it you know that expression that

907
00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:45,519
says you know

908
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:48,240
history is written by the victors

909
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:49,519
in the same way

910
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:51,840
all of the the rough spots the ups and

911
00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:54,720
downs the complexity gets smoothed out

912
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:57,760
right so when it's when we read about uh

913
00:33:00,789 --> 00:32:59,039
and that's why people can even have a

914
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:00,799
romantic notion about the past right in

915
00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:03,120
this i wish wish we lived like it was

916
00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:05,360
like you know everyone everybody lived

917
00:33:09,669 --> 00:33:08,240
on farms and rode horses into town

918
00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:09,679
and so we have this kind of romantic

919
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:11,279
notion about the way it used to be not

920
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:12,799
aware of all the hardships and the

921
00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:14,640
difficulty and the many ways that our

922
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:17,200
lives are so much simpler even though i

923
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:19,279
understand that to some degree we've

924
00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:22,080
we've uh created our own complexity and

925
00:33:26,389 --> 00:33:24,159
challenges because of the ease of our

926
00:33:28,149 --> 00:33:26,399
lives in some ways

927
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:28,159
but yeah it is interesting that when you

928
00:33:32,789 --> 00:33:30,559
read history what you tend to get is

929
00:33:35,110 --> 00:33:32,799
kind of the glossed over

930
00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:35,120
truncated smoothed out version of the

931
00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:36,399
history

932
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:39,840
when in any area you happen to live in

933
00:33:44,710 --> 00:33:42,720
you recognize it's really complex it's

934
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:44,720
there's a lot of gray and there's a lot

935
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:47,120
of confusion in the midst of it and

936
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:48,960
competing worldviews that are sort of

937
00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:50,960
battling out it out to make the best

938
00:33:54,389 --> 00:33:52,960
sense of the data and again what's

939
00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:54,399
interesting for those of us really

940
00:33:59,509 --> 00:33:56,240
invested in this topic

941
00:34:01,750 --> 00:33:59,519
is that we are daily uh you know dealing

942
00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:01,760
with data sets that

943
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:03,919
99 of the population is not even aware

944
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:06,159
of and that just puts us in an

945
00:34:09,349 --> 00:34:07,200
interesting

946
00:34:11,990 --> 00:34:09,359
place and and yet that will probably be

947
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:12,000
smoothed out in history eventually uh so

948
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:14,639
once a new overarching narrative does

949
00:34:17,990 --> 00:34:16,000
emerge that makes sense of this

950
00:34:19,109 --> 00:34:18,000
phenomenon at least better than we can

951
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:19,119
now

952
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:20,399
all of the ups and downs and the

953
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:22,079
complexity that we live

954
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:24,000
day-to-day will probably be

955
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:26,720
lost to history

956
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:28,240
well and everything that we've kind of

957
00:34:31,030 --> 00:34:29,520
touched on

958
00:34:32,470 --> 00:34:31,040
thus far

959
00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:32,480
in this episode

960
00:34:39,430 --> 00:34:37,669
kind of the the elephant in the room and

961
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:39,440
that is the the scientific method and

962
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:41,919
the you know the way that science has

963
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:43,200
impacted

964
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:45,440
our understanding of of the world in

965
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:47,520
which we live i mean for us to be even

966
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:51,280
even to be even able to articulate

967
00:34:55,109 --> 00:34:54,320
uh these different aspects of what make

968
00:34:57,829 --> 00:34:55,119
up

969
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:57,839
our personalities and perspectives it

970
00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:01,440
required first the sort of shifting a

971
00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:04,000
viewpoint as you said earlier from

972
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:06,800
this ordained existence

973
00:35:10,630 --> 00:35:08,560
that we were just just happened to be

974
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:10,640
happen to find ourselves in and this is

975
00:35:15,829 --> 00:35:12,800
just the way things are to

976
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:15,839
an existence that does incorporate this

977
00:35:19,109 --> 00:35:17,440
analytical

978
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:19,119
uh you know sort of piecemeal

979
00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:21,920
reductionistic way of of subdividing the

980
00:35:25,270 --> 00:35:22,960
world

981
00:35:26,790 --> 00:35:25,280
and and these these then themselves are

982
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:26,800
incredibly

983
00:35:32,150 --> 00:35:29,280
valuable and meaningful tools in the

984
00:35:34,950 --> 00:35:32,160
study of the phenomenon so we have

985
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:34,960
our our academic institutions which

986
00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:38,160
in many ways we champion uh and are the

987
00:35:41,349 --> 00:35:39,200
pinnacle

988
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:41,359
of what we have achieved through

989
00:35:46,150 --> 00:35:43,520
enlightenment science

990
00:35:47,670 --> 00:35:46,160
this uh you know sort of very staid

991
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:47,680
academia now

992
00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:49,440
uh even though now i guess too we could

993
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:50,720
we could say and maybe we'll talk a

994
00:35:55,109 --> 00:35:52,960
little bit about it the way in which

995
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:55,119
that momentum is is itself kind of a

996
00:35:59,109 --> 00:35:56,480
resting

997
00:36:01,190 --> 00:35:59,119
uh in a way that hadn't before in the

998
00:36:02,230 --> 00:36:01,200
decades that preceded us in the 20th

999
00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:02,240
century

1000
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:04,640
we we are arriving at a place where the

1001
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:06,640
things that we have taken for granted in

1002
00:36:12,150 --> 00:36:10,079
academia as being trusted and valuable

1003
00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:12,160
are are themselves starting to erode

1004
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:13,920
before we get there though

1005
00:36:18,069 --> 00:36:16,160
you know how is it that you view

1006
00:36:21,589 --> 00:36:18,079
our relationship to

1007
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:21,599
uh to science uh and and its place in

1008
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:25,040
our lives now uh versus uh you know kind

1009
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:27,359
of where we were before which was much

1010
00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:30,240
more uh you know sort of centered on uh

1011
00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:33,599
religious uh paradigms uh

1012
00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:35,119
you know or uh

1013
00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:36,800
you know sort of that uh

1014
00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:37,839
uh

1015
00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:40,720
king or queen sort of situation of of

1016
00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:42,800
existence in different countries and

1017
00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:44,400
we've kind of moved away from that now

1018
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:47,040
to these different democracies and all

1019
00:36:50,790 --> 00:36:49,040
these are kind of merging properties of

1020
00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:50,800
science

1021
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:53,760
yeah i think the the key uh in this is

1022
00:36:57,109 --> 00:36:55,520
to

1023
00:36:59,430 --> 00:36:57,119
do the scientific

1024
00:37:01,270 --> 00:36:59,440
scientific revolution justice but also

1025
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:01,280
be willing to critique

1026
00:37:06,069 --> 00:37:04,480
some of the consequences of it as well

1027
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:06,079
but i think one thing i would point out

1028
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:07,440
is that

1029
00:37:11,430 --> 00:37:10,400
our desire and our tendency towards

1030
00:37:17,829 --> 00:37:11,440
um

1031
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:17,839
processes doesn't stop no matter what

1032
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:19,599
new way of making sense of the world we

1033
00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:23,200
adopt so when the church ruled the day

1034
00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:25,839
or or you know maybe even in eastern

1035
00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:28,240
spirituality you may have like you said

1036
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:30,160
this sort of pantheon of

1037
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:32,079
gradations of gods and this is the god

1038
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:34,160
over the sea and but he's also subject

1039
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:36,480
to this and blah blah and it's like this

1040
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:38,000
really long list it almost seems

1041
00:37:41,829 --> 00:37:39,440
scientific in some ways the way it's

1042
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:41,839
broken down almost like a chemical chart

1043
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,680
you know and yet

1044
00:37:47,990 --> 00:37:45,599
what we've done now with reductionistic

1045
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:48,000
materialism is said that you know all

1046
00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:50,000
that really is is matter the the

1047
00:37:54,150 --> 00:37:52,240
physical world and we think by breaking

1048
00:37:56,790 --> 00:37:54,160
things down into smaller and smaller and

1049
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:56,800
smaller parts you know

1050
00:38:00,310 --> 00:37:58,560
that eventually we'll we'll we'll have

1051
00:38:01,589 --> 00:38:00,320
said everything there is to say about

1052
00:38:03,589 --> 00:38:01,599
reality

1053
00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:03,599
but we're never content to say

1054
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:05,119
what's really going on and what's really

1055
00:38:09,910 --> 00:38:07,440
going on with science is we are

1056
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:09,920
describing the behavior of nature and

1057
00:38:15,430 --> 00:38:11,760
our technological success that has

1058
00:38:19,750 --> 00:38:17,910
is is so impressive right we we live

1059
00:38:21,190 --> 00:38:19,760
long lives now generally much healthier

1060
00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:21,200
than we used to be

1061
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:23,040
we uh you know you and i part of the

1062
00:38:26,790 --> 00:38:25,119
reason why we're both well-read is

1063
00:38:28,950 --> 00:38:26,800
because we grew up in an area where the

1064
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:28,960
internet existed so we can

1065
00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:30,720
search a body of data that even the

1066
00:38:34,470 --> 00:38:33,040
library of alexandria couldn't boast

1067
00:38:35,910 --> 00:38:34,480
right

1068
00:38:38,230 --> 00:38:35,920
so

1069
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:38,240
and yet what science really has gotten

1070
00:38:43,829 --> 00:38:40,960
good about is again modeling the way

1071
00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:43,839
nature behaves what nature will do

1072
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:45,839
and because of that we have predictive

1073
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:48,400
power which allows us allows us to

1074
00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:49,839
develop technologies where we can

1075
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:51,760
harness the power of nature for our own

1076
00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:53,040
benefit

1077
00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:55,200
but the irony is we don't stop there

1078
00:38:58,870 --> 00:38:56,640
though even though that's where all the

1079
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:58,880
success has been we still try to create

1080
00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:01,200
metaphysical models around that we try

1081
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:03,760
to make we just by our nature make

1082
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:05,280
assumptions based on what we're seeing

1083
00:39:09,349 --> 00:39:07,440
in the behavior about the ultimate

1084
00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:09,359
nature even though

1085
00:39:13,190 --> 00:39:10,880
that's not really what science is

1086
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:13,200
designed to do by definition all it can

1087
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:15,440
do is make predictions about the way

1088
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:17,280
nature will behave it can't ultimately

1089
00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:19,200
say what nature is

1090
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:21,200
and yet we still do it that's the point

1091
00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:23,920
i'm trying to make here is that

1092
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:25,520
you know humans are going to human

1093
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:26,960
that's what we tend to do when it was

1094
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:28,560
the church and

1095
00:39:33,349 --> 00:39:30,079
you know christianity

1096
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:33,359
uh ruling much of western civilization

1097
00:39:38,069 --> 00:39:36,079
that became our meaning-making model

1098
00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:38,079
and now with science we've kind of

1099
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:40,240
adopted this scientific reductionistic

1100
00:39:46,870 --> 00:39:43,680
perspective and that rules today

1101
00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:46,880
and as you as you pointed at there

1102
00:39:50,950 --> 00:39:48,960
slowly but surely there is data coming

1103
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:50,960
from that very field

1104
00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:53,599
that is undermining the metaphysical

1105
00:39:58,470 --> 00:39:56,400
assumptions that we have drawn up around

1106
00:40:00,470 --> 00:39:58,480
it which is an interesting process but

1107
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:00,480
but again because people do not like

1108
00:40:05,109 --> 00:40:03,040
being in a vacuum of meaning right

1109
00:40:06,550 --> 00:40:05,119
people want to have meaning making

1110
00:40:07,750 --> 00:40:06,560
models to get themselves up in the

1111
00:40:09,510 --> 00:40:07,760
morning

1112
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:09,520
the scientific community has been very

1113
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:12,560
slow to acknowledge uh the way it's

1114
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:14,400
bleeding at the margins so to speak

1115
00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:16,480
because of some of the

1116
00:40:20,150 --> 00:40:18,720
experiments that have been done you know

1117
00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:20,160
evidence that's coming out of quantum

1118
00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:21,280
mechanics it's coming out of

1119
00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:22,640
neuroscience

1120
00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:23,760
[Music]

1121
00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:26,240
hard problem of consciousness is staring

1122
00:40:32,069 --> 00:40:28,720
science in the face and it's not just a

1123
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:32,079
problem it's a logical inconsistency

1124
00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:34,319
within the paradigm and yet people are

1125
00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:36,720
very slow to acknowledge that because

1126
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:38,640
we don't want to if we acknowledge that

1127
00:40:43,109 --> 00:40:40,000
then we have to also acknowledge that

1128
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,119
we're in a period an era entering an era

1129
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:45,359
where we have no overarching meaning

1130
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:48,000
making model at all and nothing scares

1131
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:49,920
people more than that that's what our

1132
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:55,910
how do you think that

1133
00:41:00,870 --> 00:40:58,800
the sort of scientific disciplines

1134
00:41:02,870 --> 00:41:00,880
are going to wrestle with

1135
00:41:05,349 --> 00:41:02,880
with non-human intelligence and in some

1136
00:41:07,109 --> 00:41:05,359
ways i think

1137
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:07,119
there's an underlying assumption that

1138
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:09,040
the world itself isn't has an

1139
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:11,200
intelligence like

1140
00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:13,760
just as you said that we're we're able

1141
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:16,079
to take these tools of scientific

1142
00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:18,720
discovery and we can map on to

1143
00:41:24,390 --> 00:41:21,359
the world behavior so we're ascribing

1144
00:41:25,750 --> 00:41:24,400
behavior to the world but in a way that

1145
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:25,760
does

1146
00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:27,520
in some ways imply

1147
00:41:31,190 --> 00:41:29,680
a type of intelligence that is not a

1148
00:41:33,430 --> 00:41:31,200
human intelligence so i guess what i'm

1149
00:41:35,829 --> 00:41:33,440
getting at here is we we have been going

1150
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,839
through this exercise of postulating

1151
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:37,839
non-human intelligence for a very long

1152
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:40,000
time we can point to it

1153
00:41:42,710 --> 00:41:41,520
uh you know with our religious

1154
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:42,720
traditions

1155
00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:44,160
plenty of uh

1156
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:46,960
fuel there for that concept and then in

1157
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:48,400
our science as well

1158
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:51,359
it's just it's just become much more

1159
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:52,160
uh

1160
00:41:57,750 --> 00:41:54,640
kind of amorphous like it's not it's not

1161
00:41:59,910 --> 00:41:57,760
uh anthropomorphized as a bearded person

1162
00:42:02,630 --> 00:41:59,920
in the sky but it is the world in which

1163
00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:02,640
we find ourselves you know behaves in a

1164
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:04,720
certain way and can be understood and

1165
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:07,280
can be mapped and and and we can bring

1166
00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:09,440
tools to bear to to

1167
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:11,359
essentially kind of master it or at

1168
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:13,839
least coexist with it in a way that that

1169
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:16,240
benefits us uh it

1170
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:18,560
enhances our life rather than diminishes

1171
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:20,880
that so i'm curious to get your thoughts

1172
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:22,400
on

1173
00:42:29,109 --> 00:42:27,200
the exercise of science in how it

1174
00:42:32,470 --> 00:42:29,119
approaches this concept of non-human

1175
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:32,480
intelligence just generally but do you

1176
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:34,240
think that

1177
00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:36,480
we we currently are or at least in the

1178
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:38,000
process of

1179
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:41,119
uh taking a lot of those disciplines

1180
00:42:47,349 --> 00:42:44,800
and and starting to wrestle with aspects

1181
00:42:48,309 --> 00:42:47,359
of the phenomenon that that we hear

1182
00:42:50,069 --> 00:42:48,319
about

1183
00:42:52,069 --> 00:42:50,079
because i would hope that we are doing

1184
00:42:54,550 --> 00:42:52,079
that or trying to do that but we talk a

1185
00:42:56,069 --> 00:42:54,560
lot about government disclosure and kind

1186
00:42:57,910 --> 00:42:56,079
of what they know what they're going to

1187
00:42:59,990 --> 00:42:57,920
tell us and and we talk about the

1188
00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:00,000
galileo project in the community and

1189
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:02,160
what it's going to discover but you and

1190
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:04,720
i both know that whatever revelation

1191
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:06,400
does emerge

1192
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:07,920
we'll have to

1193
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:10,400
are all of our disciplines that have

1194
00:43:15,589 --> 00:43:12,720
become these pillars of our society are

1195
00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:15,599
going to wrestle with this new reality

1196
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:17,280
and are going to have to incorporate

1197
00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:19,200
facets of this reality into their

1198
00:43:23,030 --> 00:43:20,960
disciplines do you think we're doing

1199
00:43:24,790 --> 00:43:23,040
this in any meaningful way now and if

1200
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:24,800
we're not what are some ways we could be

1201
00:43:28,470 --> 00:43:25,760
doing it

1202
00:43:29,349 --> 00:43:28,480
as we move forward

1203
00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:29,359
well

1204
00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:30,880
if i'm honest i'd say that we're doing

1205
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:31,839
it in

1206
00:43:37,030 --> 00:43:35,040
a kicking and screaming kind of way

1207
00:43:39,349 --> 00:43:37,040
which again has always been the case

1208
00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:39,359
with our civilization

1209
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:41,200
uh when you think it back again like i

1210
00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:42,960
mentioned a couple times ago

1211
00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:44,720
thomas kuhn's

1212
00:43:49,270 --> 00:43:47,040
discussion of scientific revolutions how

1213
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:49,280
science actually progresses

1214
00:43:52,069 --> 00:43:51,359
that as much as science like you pointed

1215
00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:52,079
out

1216
00:43:55,829 --> 00:43:54,240
ultimately the way it's practiced

1217
00:43:57,349 --> 00:43:55,839
unfortunately there's no way to do it

1218
00:43:59,829 --> 00:43:57,359
without human beings being involved

1219
00:44:01,589 --> 00:43:59,839
generally and um

1220
00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:01,599
and this is ironic too because even when

1221
00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:03,680
it comes to ai

1222
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:04,480
uh

1223
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:06,319
part of the challenge is we program the

1224
00:44:10,950 --> 00:44:08,960
ai right so we we build in all of our

1225
00:44:13,750 --> 00:44:10,960
biases into the

1226
00:44:15,670 --> 00:44:13,760
data structures themselves

1227
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:15,680
but

1228
00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:18,240
yeah i think that

1229
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:20,240
when you look back you know even sort of

1230
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:23,599
the middle ages and the church's ruling

1231
00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:25,440
the tendency tends to be again we like

1232
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:27,280
to believe we know what's going on

1233
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:28,800
generally speaking and we leave a little

1234
00:44:32,230 --> 00:44:30,880
bit of margin like five ten percent even

1235
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:32,240
ten percent more than we're comfortable

1236
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:34,240
with in terms of saying we don't really

1237
00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:35,760
know what's going on so this is going to

1238
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:41,829
and

1239
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:49,200
us

1240
00:44:54,069 --> 00:44:51,440
has to do with our our place on the food

1241
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:54,079
chain so to speak you know uh if it's

1242
00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:56,160
true not only that

1243
00:45:01,750 --> 00:44:59,280
intelligence exists outside of humanity

1244
00:45:04,230 --> 00:45:01,760
but perhaps has always been here in our

1245
00:45:05,670 --> 00:45:04,240
midst and is so far beyond us are so

1246
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:05,680
other to us

1247
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:07,920
that we haven't even had the capacity to

1248
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:09,280
recognize it

1249
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:11,040
um that's a whole different level right

1250
00:45:16,230 --> 00:45:13,040
like you you could argue that an ant

1251
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:16,240
colony unless you come and stamp on it

1252
00:45:20,069 --> 00:45:18,000
it's largely unaware of you if you're

1253
00:45:22,870 --> 00:45:20,079
driving by and you're in your car you

1254
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:22,880
know it it your existence has no impact

1255
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:25,359
directly and so it may have no knowledge

1256
00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:26,400
of you

1257
00:45:29,910 --> 00:45:27,920
we don't like to put ourselves in the

1258
00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:29,920
position relatively of the ants right

1259
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:33,520
but that may very well be accurate so

1260
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:34,800
you know when

1261
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:36,079
science

1262
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:38,640
you know does try to reach out when nasa

1263
00:45:43,829 --> 00:45:40,800
tries to reach out when

1264
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:43,839
we try to study in projects like that

1265
00:45:48,150 --> 00:45:46,160
again it tends to be listen we have

1266
00:45:49,589 --> 00:45:48,160
certain understandings or assumptions

1267
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:49,599
about the way the world should work

1268
00:45:52,790 --> 00:45:51,280
including the universe

1269
00:45:53,910 --> 00:45:52,800
and so we're going to look for it in a

1270
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:53,920
certain way

1271
00:45:57,910 --> 00:45:56,480
to find that cherry on top right

1272
00:45:59,430 --> 00:45:57,920
we

1273
00:46:01,829 --> 00:45:59,440
first of all it's just very difficult to

1274
00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:01,839
do it any other way because how can you

1275
00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:03,599
move forward without some operating

1276
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:05,359
assumptions right that's how we make our

1277
00:46:09,589 --> 00:46:07,680
way through the world

1278
00:46:11,349 --> 00:46:09,599
and yet what i think is challenging with

1279
00:46:12,829 --> 00:46:11,359
the ufo phenomenon data and the

1280
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:12,839
literature is

1281
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:17,760
that there is mounting evidence that

1282
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:19,920
the way we see the world is is quite a

1283
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:22,000
ways off it's not just missing that five

1284
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:23,760
or ten percent margin

1285
00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:25,680
uh you know when you think about even

1286
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:28,720
notions like dark energy and dark matter

1287
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:31,760
we posit those right to try and fulfill

1288
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:34,079
our understanding of the nature of the

1289
00:46:38,069 --> 00:46:36,000
cosmos

1290
00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:38,079
and then sort of mutter under our breath

1291
00:46:43,190 --> 00:46:41,040
and that's the vast vast majority is the

1292
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:43,200
stuff we call dark energy and dark

1293
00:46:47,990 --> 00:46:45,599
matter it it's the vast majority of the

1294
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:48,000
stuff out there it must be because our

1295
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:49,359
model of the universe wouldn't hold

1296
00:46:53,510 --> 00:46:51,440
together otherwise and yet we also

1297
00:46:55,190 --> 00:46:53,520
mutter under our breath that we admit

1298
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:55,200
that we don't really know what it is

1299
00:46:58,550 --> 00:46:56,800
right so it's like

1300
00:46:59,910 --> 00:46:58,560
postulating a hypothesis with a vast

1301
00:47:01,670 --> 00:46:59,920
majority of it you don't actually

1302
00:47:04,630 --> 00:47:01,680
understand but you just sort of it's

1303
00:47:06,309 --> 00:47:04,640
like a god of the gaps kind of thinking

1304
00:47:07,750 --> 00:47:06,319
if we posit this then the whole thing

1305
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:07,760
holds together

1306
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:09,119
but the

1307
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:11,520
society around you that has given you

1308
00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:13,359
these reigns as the new priesthood

1309
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:14,960
believes you really know what's going on

1310
00:47:17,670 --> 00:47:16,319
and actually you're kind of admitting

1311
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:17,680
you don't and people who pay close

1312
00:47:20,630 --> 00:47:18,800
attention

1313
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:20,640
recognize that that's what we're really

1314
00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:21,680
saying

1315
00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:24,880
um so yeah this as much as i'd like to

1316
00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:27,520
say there's uh an embrace of this and we

1317
00:47:31,510 --> 00:47:28,559
will

1318
00:47:34,470 --> 00:47:31,520
open the range to try and really uh look

1319
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:34,480
at this squarely that doesn't tend to be

1320
00:47:37,510 --> 00:47:35,839
how we do things and i don't think

1321
00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:37,520
that's going to change

1322
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:39,280
there are all sorts of power structures

1323
00:47:44,549 --> 00:47:43,200
in government in science in academia

1324
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:44,559
that you know we've talked about this

1325
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:46,640
many times the john max of the world you

1326
00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:47,920
know the

1327
00:47:51,349 --> 00:47:49,440
there's a reason why

1328
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:51,359
chocolate is part of the invisible

1329
00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:54,400
college right because these people

1330
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:56,000
have for a long period of time couldn't

1331
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:57,520
do it visibly because it would mean the

1332
00:48:02,150 --> 00:47:59,760
end of their careers the end of their

1333
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:02,160
academic opportunity um

1334
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:03,680
and these are people who have to raise

1335
00:48:07,549 --> 00:48:05,440
families and pay bills like everybody

1336
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:07,559
else and as much as that sounds so

1337
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:10,480
unscientific that by just daring to ask

1338
00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:12,880
certain questions you could lose your

1339
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:15,040
livelihood as a

1340
00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:16,640
you know a member of academia who's

1341
00:48:19,829 --> 00:48:18,240
supposed to be in the process in the

1342
00:48:21,670 --> 00:48:19,839
business of asking questions and

1343
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:21,680
exploring reality

1344
00:48:24,950 --> 00:48:23,280
the reality is

1345
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:24,960
socially

1346
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:26,559
within our construct is that you can

1347
00:48:31,510 --> 00:48:28,240
only ask certain questions within

1348
00:48:32,870 --> 00:48:31,520
certain bounds and that be okay

1349
00:48:34,470 --> 00:48:32,880
so

1350
00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:34,480
what will be interesting to see and it

1351
00:48:39,030 --> 00:48:36,319
will be a messy process

1352
00:48:39,990 --> 00:48:39,040
is when the data itself forces open

1353
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:40,000
those

1354
00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:42,960
boundaries and says we will not play

1355
00:48:46,069 --> 00:48:43,839
nice

1356
00:48:47,510 --> 00:48:46,079
with your assumptions about reality

1357
00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:47,520
those of us who paid attention to the

1358
00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:50,559
data see that already uh it's

1359
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:52,640
it's going to be a rude awakening for

1360
00:48:58,470 --> 00:48:55,440
most of the academic infrastructure to

1361
00:49:00,309 --> 00:48:58,480
uh to see that themselves

1362
00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:00,319
and we see this take place in the

1363
00:49:06,230 --> 00:49:02,800
community the ufo community

1364
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:08,309
kind of instinctive

1365
00:49:13,349 --> 00:49:10,960
uh reflexive reaction

1366
00:49:15,910 --> 00:49:13,359
against the the woo as we talk about

1367
00:49:16,710 --> 00:49:15,920
that because in many ways we don't have

1368
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:16,720
a

1369
00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:24,880
the uh sort of the

1370
00:49:29,270 --> 00:49:27,040
the asap stuff and the the the

1371
00:49:31,270 --> 00:49:29,280
commissioning of the geared reports and

1372
00:49:33,349 --> 00:49:31,280
you know really asking

1373
00:49:36,069 --> 00:49:33,359
academics who are very good in their

1374
00:49:39,270 --> 00:49:36,079
disciplines to

1375
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:39,280
really expand and think theoretically

1376
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:40,400
about

1377
00:49:44,950 --> 00:49:42,319
areas of science that we just don't we

1378
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:44,960
don't we have no mastery of now but what

1379
00:49:49,109 --> 00:49:46,720
might they look like and i'm wondering

1380
00:49:50,710 --> 00:49:49,119
you know if we do need to sort of

1381
00:49:53,270 --> 00:49:50,720
capture some of this

1382
00:49:56,069 --> 00:49:53,280
in our in our academic institutions

1383
00:49:58,630 --> 00:49:56,079
and enshrine it in you know just more

1384
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:58,640
generally because it seems to me and i

1385
00:50:01,910 --> 00:50:00,240
certainly not a scientist so i could be

1386
00:50:04,230 --> 00:50:01,920
very wrong but

1387
00:50:07,109 --> 00:50:04,240
we are really only pursuing things that

1388
00:50:10,230 --> 00:50:07,119
that are generally kind of agreed

1389
00:50:11,750 --> 00:50:10,240
uh as worthy of pursuit you know so you

1390
00:50:14,069 --> 00:50:11,760
can't br you can't be

1391
00:50:17,270 --> 00:50:14,079
a person who might be uh you know a

1392
00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:17,280
biologist who has a fanciful idea about

1393
00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:19,920
a new biome because that sounds so

1394
00:50:25,109 --> 00:50:21,920
outside the norm of

1395
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:25,119
of of consensus biology that you're not

1396
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:26,480
going to get any funding you're not

1397
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:28,480
going to so i'm wondering how do we

1398
00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:31,200
create uh sort of

1399
00:50:34,950 --> 00:50:33,040
new disciplines or room within the

1400
00:50:37,510 --> 00:50:34,960
disciplines that we have

1401
00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:37,520
that that allow for broad theoretical

1402
00:50:40,870 --> 00:50:39,040
thinking because it seems to me that

1403
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:40,880
that's how we can

1404
00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:43,920
uh you know sort of find a new way to to

1405
00:50:47,589 --> 00:50:46,079
better understand this and what's

1406
00:50:49,349 --> 00:50:47,599
happening we have to be bold to ask

1407
00:50:51,750 --> 00:50:49,359
these questions even if they end up

1408
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:51,760
taking us down behind alleys but i don't

1409
00:50:55,349 --> 00:50:53,440
feel like we're doing a good job of

1410
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:55,359
asking bold questions anymore at all and

1411
00:51:00,069 --> 00:50:57,520
i hear avi lopes saying that

1412
00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:00,079
as well as others

1413
00:51:03,990 --> 00:51:02,319
yeah like to to use your analogy there

1414
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:04,000
say if you want to do research into the

1415
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:06,720
possibility of an extra frequency biome

1416
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:07,520
right

1417
00:51:12,950 --> 00:51:10,319
a biome that exists that is just beyond

1418
00:51:15,589 --> 00:51:12,960
our normal bounds of perception

1419
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:15,599
um and

1420
00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:16,400
yeah

1421
00:51:21,349 --> 00:51:19,520
unless you can show convincing data that

1422
00:51:23,589 --> 00:51:21,359
that is the best

1423
00:51:25,430 --> 00:51:23,599
answer for some of what we see going on

1424
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:25,440
you're going to have a very hard time

1425
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:26,880
moving forward

1426
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:28,720
why because these things

1427
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:30,480
take a lot of money you know like you

1428
00:51:33,910 --> 00:51:32,720
look at someone like dean raiden

1429
00:51:35,910 --> 00:51:33,920
and part of the reason he goes on so

1430
00:51:37,510 --> 00:51:35,920
many podcasts is because he constantly

1431
00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:37,520
has to raise money for their next

1432
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:39,119
experiment it's not like

1433
00:51:42,710 --> 00:51:40,880
money grows on trees for scientists

1434
00:51:45,750 --> 00:51:42,720
either right like they

1435
00:51:48,309 --> 00:51:45,760
they have to i mean beyond the

1436
00:51:49,750 --> 00:51:48,319
robert bigelows of the world you know

1437
00:51:51,829 --> 00:51:49,760
there's only so many of them you know

1438
00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:51,839
willing to fund these things out of the

1439
00:51:57,430 --> 00:51:54,160
billions of their real estate empire

1440
00:51:59,430 --> 00:51:57,440
most of the time these um

1441
00:52:01,589 --> 00:51:59,440
scientists on the fringe

1442
00:52:03,510 --> 00:52:01,599
uh have no choice but to try to raise

1443
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:03,520
awareness and string together enough

1444
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:05,040
money for the next experiment and they

1445
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:06,480
don't even bother

1446
00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:07,920
thinking about the second or third

1447
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:09,359
experiment down the road because that'll

1448
00:52:12,790 --> 00:52:11,280
be its own fundraising campaign right so

1449
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:12,800
they have to sort of string together one

1450
00:52:15,349 --> 00:52:14,400
experiment to the next

1451
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:15,359
um

1452
00:52:20,549 --> 00:52:18,480
and you know if you're within

1453
00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:20,559
academic structures then you better at

1454
00:52:24,549 --> 00:52:22,400
least have tenure before you try and

1455
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,559
some of this some of this because

1456
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:26,960
if you do get two outside the mainstream

1457
00:52:30,630 --> 00:52:29,280
two unorthodox again it sounds a lot

1458
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:30,640
like religion when you really think

1459
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:32,880
about it you just won't get tenure right

1460
00:52:37,589 --> 00:52:35,440
you'll be politely escorted out of the

1461
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:37,599
building and and that's what harvard

1462
00:52:42,150 --> 00:52:40,640
tried to do with john mack in many ways

1463
00:52:44,230 --> 00:52:42,160
um

1464
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:44,240
so

1465
00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:46,880
i wish there was a a way that i saw

1466
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:48,240
evidence that we're really moving

1467
00:52:53,349 --> 00:52:51,280
forward i don't think

1468
00:52:55,109 --> 00:52:53,359
again i think it's going to be in a in a

1469
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:55,119
manner of kicking and screaming that

1470
00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:57,280
it's only when the data

1471
00:53:01,109 --> 00:52:59,040
will not fit you know there were always

1472
00:53:02,150 --> 00:53:01,119
thankfully the the jacques fillets of

1473
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:02,160
the world

1474
00:53:06,230 --> 00:53:04,640
um that are willing to

1475
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:06,240
go where the data leads i mean that's

1476
00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:08,240
what the spirit of science says you

1477
00:53:11,829 --> 00:53:10,160
should do that if the data

1478
00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:11,839
is telling you that your hypothesis

1479
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,520
can't possibly be correct because

1480
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:15,119
there's too much outlier data and it

1481
00:53:18,309 --> 00:53:16,960
happens too regularly

1482
00:53:20,069 --> 00:53:18,319
then

1483
00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:20,079
science should welcome that because that

1484
00:53:24,950 --> 00:53:22,160
it's that's the business it's in

1485
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:24,960
unfortunately the practice often doesn't

1486
00:53:28,790 --> 00:53:27,440
live up to the spirit and scientism

1487
00:53:31,270 --> 00:53:28,800
takes over where there's all sorts of

1488
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:31,280
assumptions about what's even

1489
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:32,880
possible and certainly what you can get

1490
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:36,240
funded to uh to study so

1491
00:53:39,589 --> 00:53:38,240
again there are signs that is beginning

1492
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:39,599
to change

1493
00:53:44,790 --> 00:53:42,720
um slowly but surely um

1494
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:44,800
i think diana posalka has pointed out

1495
00:53:47,910 --> 00:53:45,839
that

1496
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,920
fewer people have to be in invisible

1497
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:49,760
colleges than used to be the case they

1498
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:51,040
can

1499
00:53:53,910 --> 00:53:52,559
there are actually people who actually

1500
00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:53,920
can

1501
00:53:59,349 --> 00:53:56,800
be in academia and study some of this

1502
00:54:02,069 --> 00:53:59,359
um you know michael masters put forward

1503
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:02,079
the the time travel hypothesis and

1504
00:54:07,589 --> 00:54:04,960
because it's based on you know sound

1505
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:07,599
scientific principles um

1506
00:54:12,170 --> 00:54:10,400
he's been welcomed in his university and

1507
00:54:14,710 --> 00:54:12,180
encouraged to keep going

1508
00:54:16,630 --> 00:54:14,720
[Music]

1509
00:54:18,549 --> 00:54:16,640
but again it's a tricky process and i

1510
00:54:21,349 --> 00:54:18,559
feel for people in those structures i've

1511
00:54:23,670 --> 00:54:21,359
had academics write me

1512
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:23,680
who you know like my podcast want to

1513
00:54:28,790 --> 00:54:26,400
study this and they ask me

1514
00:54:31,109 --> 00:54:28,800
uh what kind of positions they i think

1515
00:54:33,030 --> 00:54:31,119
exist in academia that they could pursue

1516
00:54:35,109 --> 00:54:33,040
to be able to do it and i'm not in a

1517
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:35,119
position to answer because i'm not in

1518
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:36,640
academia um

1519
00:54:40,470 --> 00:54:38,960
but i feel for them because i recognize

1520
00:54:43,109 --> 00:54:40,480
what they're saying is

1521
00:54:44,630 --> 00:54:43,119
if i come out and am honest about what i

1522
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:44,640
want to study and what i think might be

1523
00:54:48,549 --> 00:54:46,400
going on or what avenues i'm even

1524
00:54:50,150 --> 00:54:48,559
interested in pursuing i might lose my

1525
00:54:52,069 --> 00:54:50,160
job so

1526
00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:52,079
again the good news is it's slowly

1527
00:54:57,109 --> 00:54:54,240
changing but the truth is it's

1528
00:55:01,990 --> 00:54:58,710
and it's funny because i you know you

1529
00:55:04,230 --> 00:55:02,000
can point to a lot of um

1530
00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:04,240
you know sort of events that happen that

1531
00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:07,280
that bring together

1532
00:55:12,230 --> 00:55:10,079
professionals from different disciplines

1533
00:55:14,230 --> 00:55:12,240
and they're incredibly energizing i mean

1534
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:14,240
i'm thinking of what the event that

1535
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:16,720
happened last year

1536
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:18,960
at the national cathedral

1537
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:21,040
where we had you know sort of people

1538
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:23,359
from the government we had theologians

1539
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:25,200
we had scientists you know all on this

1540
00:55:30,150 --> 00:55:27,920
stage in this grand space

1541
00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:30,160
uh really talking about the future of

1542
00:55:34,870 --> 00:55:32,400
humanity in space

1543
00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:34,880
our relationship with that

1544
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:36,160
and

1545
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:38,240
i got the impression i certainly wasn't

1546
00:55:42,870 --> 00:55:41,839
there but it it was very energizing to

1547
00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:42,880
see those

1548
00:55:47,589 --> 00:55:45,920
different individuals interact and and

1549
00:55:49,030 --> 00:55:47,599
come at this topic from different

1550
00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:49,040
perspectives

1551
00:55:52,710 --> 00:55:51,440
and i just you know it's it's a shame in

1552
00:55:55,270 --> 00:55:52,720
a way how

1553
00:55:58,390 --> 00:55:55,280
our academic disciplines have become so

1554
00:56:00,390 --> 00:55:58,400
narrowly focused and isolated i'll also

1555
00:56:01,349 --> 00:56:00,400
wonder to what degree

1556
00:56:05,430 --> 00:56:01,359
as our

1557
00:56:07,829 --> 00:56:05,440
to kind of

1558
00:56:09,430 --> 00:56:07,839
uh tease out connections across

1559
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:09,440
disciplines through artificial

1560
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:11,520
intelligence if that may

1561
00:56:15,750 --> 00:56:14,079
reveal to us some connections that that

1562
00:56:16,789 --> 00:56:15,760
aren't visible

1563
00:56:18,549 --> 00:56:16,799
to

1564
00:56:20,870 --> 00:56:18,559
those who are in their

1565
00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:20,880
you know in their respective schools of

1566
00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:23,599
thought but but may there may be a tool

1567
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:25,520
that kind of runs in the background that

1568
00:56:30,069 --> 00:56:26,960
sort of pops

1569
00:56:32,710 --> 00:56:30,079
up and says hey you're working on uh

1570
00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:32,720
this particular avenue of study you may

1571
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:34,720
not be aware but so and so who's over

1572
00:56:38,470 --> 00:56:36,880
here in this discipline

1573
00:56:40,789 --> 00:56:38,480
you know there's an intersection

1574
00:56:42,390 --> 00:56:40,799
happening that neither of you have an

1575
00:56:45,190 --> 00:56:42,400
awareness of and you should have a

1576
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:45,200
conversation so you know what i find

1577
00:56:49,510 --> 00:56:47,280
funny about just all that generally is

1578
00:56:52,630 --> 00:56:49,520
that our science

1579
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:52,640
we we've gotten really good about making

1580
00:56:56,789 --> 00:56:55,359
science like taking the human beings out

1581
00:56:59,589 --> 00:56:56,799
of science

1582
00:57:01,670 --> 00:56:59,599
and and we we we forget that either that

1583
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:01,680
we are still human that we are we need

1584
00:57:05,670 --> 00:57:03,200
relationship and

1585
00:57:08,309 --> 00:57:05,680
and it is in those relationships that

1586
00:57:11,109 --> 00:57:08,319
that a lot of meaning takes place

1587
00:57:14,069 --> 00:57:11,119
and so you know how do we invigorate and

1588
00:57:16,549 --> 00:57:14,079
infuse our science with

1589
00:57:17,829 --> 00:57:16,559
opportunities for us to

1590
00:57:19,829 --> 00:57:17,839
kind of

1591
00:57:22,309 --> 00:57:19,839
not only share our experiences but

1592
00:57:25,030 --> 00:57:22,319
champion the things that make us

1593
00:57:27,270 --> 00:57:25,040
human and that give meaning to our lives

1594
00:57:29,190 --> 00:57:27,280
and not just kind of box them into this

1595
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:29,200
place that says well that's

1596
00:57:33,270 --> 00:57:30,960
you know that that's not a that's not

1597
00:57:34,950 --> 00:57:33,280
how i would explain it scientifically

1598
00:57:36,950 --> 00:57:34,960
that's just a story so i'm going to put

1599
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:36,960
it over here in this kind of neat i

1600
00:57:40,870 --> 00:57:38,880
don't have to worry about it too much

1601
00:57:43,109 --> 00:57:40,880
it's not it's not science i can ignore

1602
00:57:44,950 --> 00:57:43,119
it for now how do we kind of

1603
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:44,960
bring this back together in a way you've

1604
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:46,160
talked about this before you know

1605
00:57:50,390 --> 00:57:48,480
inspire the spirally nature of it kind

1606
00:57:52,230 --> 00:57:50,400
of pull some things from our past that

1607
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:52,240
were more relational

1608
00:57:57,829 --> 00:57:55,200
were more uh sort of vet place higher

1609
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:57,839
value on individual experience

1610
00:58:02,390 --> 00:58:00,319
but but bring in the great qualities of

1611
00:58:04,390 --> 00:58:02,400
science that have allowed us to to

1612
00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:04,400
achieve so much

1613
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,400
well i think one of the

1614
00:58:09,990 --> 00:58:08,400
things that needs to change and again

1615
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:10,000
people like chocolate have talked about

1616
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:12,240
this

1617
00:58:15,910 --> 00:58:14,480
um john alexander has also talked about

1618
00:58:18,789 --> 00:58:15,920
this he's talked about the the

1619
00:58:20,150 --> 00:58:18,799
phenomenon is easily as complicated as

1620
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:20,160
as cancer

1621
00:58:25,589 --> 00:58:23,040
and we you know

1622
00:58:26,789 --> 00:58:25,599
put enormous wealth towards cancer every

1623
00:58:28,309 --> 00:58:26,799
year and

1624
00:58:31,270 --> 00:58:28,319
brilliant minds around the world trying

1625
00:58:33,829 --> 00:58:31,280
to figure that out right

1626
00:58:36,990 --> 00:58:33,839
a big problem with

1627
00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:37,000
science and academia is we've focused on

1628
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:40,640
specialization right so

1629
00:58:44,069 --> 00:58:42,240
what's

1630
00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:44,079
astounding about the data coming out of

1631
00:58:48,710 --> 00:58:46,160
the ufo phenomenon is that it crosses

1632
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:48,720
across many fields it refuses to be

1633
00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:52,240
boxed by our usual assumptions right

1634
00:58:58,390 --> 00:58:57,030
we should have physicists and

1635
00:59:01,349 --> 00:58:58,400
astronomers

1636
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:01,359
and geneticists you know all involved

1637
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:03,359
you know psychologists

1638
00:59:06,789 --> 00:59:04,640
psychiatrists

1639
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:06,799
uh you know archaeologists it goes

1640
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:09,280
across the across the board right like

1641
00:59:13,510 --> 00:59:11,520
all of those need to be involved because

1642
00:59:15,349 --> 00:59:13,520
it refuses to play by our rules again

1643
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:15,359
and and yet the way that academic

1644
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:17,599
structures are are set up

1645
00:59:21,510 --> 00:59:18,400
you

1646
00:59:23,990 --> 00:59:21,520
choose a specialty and it's kind of

1647
00:59:25,430 --> 00:59:24,000
really frowned upon if you're

1648
00:59:26,870 --> 00:59:25,440
daring to

1649
00:59:28,630 --> 00:59:26,880
say something about a field that's not

1650
00:59:31,030 --> 00:59:28,640
your specialization so there's sort of

1651
00:59:32,630 --> 00:59:31,040
like this you know

1652
00:59:34,470 --> 00:59:32,640
neighborhood mentality of like stay on

1653
00:59:35,990 --> 00:59:34,480
your side of the border kind of thing

1654
00:59:38,150 --> 00:59:36,000
and yet

1655
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:38,160
in that while it's allowed for some

1656
00:59:44,309 --> 00:59:42,720
great advances it also has

1657
00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:44,319
frustrated our efforts to make

1658
00:59:49,910 --> 00:59:47,520
generalized progress i think and in a

1659
00:59:52,470 --> 00:59:49,920
topic such as this

1660
00:59:53,990 --> 00:59:52,480
um which again is so complex there's so

1661
00:59:55,430 --> 00:59:54,000
many issues to it

1662
00:59:57,430 --> 00:59:55,440
when you think about all the theories

1663
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:57,440
all the hypotheses out there

1664
01:00:00,870 --> 00:59:59,280
they run the gamut in terms of what is

1665
01:00:06,829 --> 01:00:00,880
the

1666
01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:06,839
phenomenon that it needs to be an

1667
01:00:11,030 --> 01:00:09,280
interdisciplinary study it absolutely

1668
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:11,040
does

1669
01:00:14,789 --> 01:00:13,280
and yet again that's one of the

1670
01:00:16,309 --> 01:00:14,799
challenges with our current structures

1671
01:00:17,910 --> 01:00:16,319
is that

1672
01:00:19,430 --> 01:00:17,920
knowledge is not

1673
01:00:21,750 --> 01:00:19,440
understood to be

1674
01:00:23,829 --> 01:00:21,760
gained that way rather we focus on these

1675
01:00:26,069 --> 01:00:23,839
fields of specialization

1676
01:00:27,510 --> 01:00:26,079
because this is so all-encompassing

1677
01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:27,520
because this is saying something about

1678
01:00:31,430 --> 01:00:29,440
reality itself

1679
01:00:33,589 --> 01:00:31,440
we i think we have no choice to make it

1680
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:33,599
but to make it a multi-disciplinary kind

1681
01:00:36,870 --> 01:00:34,319
of

1682
01:00:38,950 --> 01:00:36,880
endeavor but again we're fighting an

1683
01:00:40,870 --> 01:00:38,960
uphill battle to make that happen

1684
01:00:42,870 --> 01:00:40,880
and the people who do tend to do it are

1685
01:00:44,069 --> 01:00:42,880
the brave souls who say

1686
01:00:46,710 --> 01:00:44,079
you know

1687
01:00:48,549 --> 01:00:46,720
i don't care what the norm is i know

1688
01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:48,559
that this is how i have to approach this

1689
01:00:52,390 --> 01:00:50,400
because this is what the data again is

1690
01:00:56,069 --> 01:00:52,400
telling me and i'll go where the data

1691
01:00:58,309 --> 01:00:56,079
leads and again i think back to that

1692
01:00:59,190 --> 01:00:58,319
that paper

1693
01:01:03,750 --> 01:00:59,200
that

1694
01:01:05,589 --> 01:01:03,760
basically his plea was saying

1695
01:01:07,190 --> 01:01:05,599
science has to get involved and it has

1696
01:01:09,190 --> 01:01:07,200
to be a multi-disciplinary kind of

1697
01:01:10,710 --> 01:01:09,200
approach that's the only way we'll make

1698
01:01:13,109 --> 01:01:10,720
headway otherwise we're going to keep

1699
01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:13,119
hitting these brick walls

1700
01:01:17,109 --> 01:01:15,760
as much as there's been amazing progress

1701
01:01:18,630 --> 01:01:17,119
on one hand

1702
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:18,640
i think i also mentioned to you recently

1703
01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:20,319
that i saw an interview from the 19

1704
01:01:27,190 --> 01:01:23,119
early 1990s i think 1991

1705
01:01:30,630 --> 01:01:28,549
this one person was saying some really

1706
01:01:31,910 --> 01:01:30,640
cutting edge things about what the

1707
01:01:33,750 --> 01:01:31,920
nature of the phenomenon might

1708
01:01:36,630 --> 01:01:33,760
ultimately be and it has to do with

1709
01:01:38,630 --> 01:01:36,640
reality itself

1710
01:01:40,390 --> 01:01:38,640
and that sounded cutting edge then and

1711
01:01:41,910 --> 01:01:40,400
the irony is there are new people saying

1712
01:01:43,510 --> 01:01:41,920
the exact same things that sound cutting

1713
01:01:45,589 --> 01:01:43,520
edge today and that's because these

1714
01:01:47,829 --> 01:01:45,599
things never really

1715
01:01:49,829 --> 01:01:47,839
take on a life of their own because they

1716
01:01:51,030 --> 01:01:49,839
hit these walls that exist within our

1717
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:51,040
structures

1718
01:01:54,789 --> 01:01:53,760
to prevent uh you know further discourse

1719
01:01:56,309 --> 01:01:54,799
further

1720
01:01:58,630 --> 01:01:56,319
investigation

1721
01:02:00,390 --> 01:01:58,640
so i'm glad it's changing

1722
01:02:02,950 --> 01:02:00,400
it needs to keep changing and it needs

1723
01:02:04,789 --> 01:02:02,960
to broaden in order for us to really i

1724
01:02:07,270 --> 01:02:04,799
think grapple with all of the elements

1725
01:02:09,670 --> 01:02:07,280
of what's going on

1726
01:02:11,829 --> 01:02:09,680
how would you counsel someone who is

1727
01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:11,839
listening to this and thinking

1728
01:02:17,109 --> 01:02:14,160
through the various

1729
01:02:18,829 --> 01:02:17,119
avenues of approaching the topic and

1730
01:02:21,829 --> 01:02:18,839
how do you

1731
01:02:23,589 --> 01:02:21,839
not kind of arrive at a place that that

1732
01:02:25,670 --> 01:02:23,599
it feels a little bit

1733
01:02:27,029 --> 01:02:25,680
as if the ground is not solid you know

1734
01:02:28,390 --> 01:02:27,039
how do you

1735
01:02:31,109 --> 01:02:28,400
apply

1736
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:31,119
a certain set of tools or go through the

1737
01:02:36,390 --> 01:02:32,880
catalog of tools that you have at your

1738
01:02:38,309 --> 01:02:36,400
disposal and and in that process

1739
01:02:39,670 --> 01:02:38,319
sort of gain clarity

1740
01:02:41,270 --> 01:02:39,680
uh or

1741
01:02:43,510 --> 01:02:41,280
you know sort of winnow them down to

1742
01:02:46,950 --> 01:02:43,520
saying okay this one seems

1743
01:02:49,270 --> 01:02:46,960
like the best way to to explain

1744
01:02:51,190 --> 01:02:49,280
you know what we are seeing and hearing

1745
01:02:53,430 --> 01:02:51,200
and even then i wonder you know

1746
01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:53,440
particularly with respect to

1747
01:02:58,630 --> 01:02:55,359
uh experiences the individual

1748
01:03:01,270 --> 01:02:58,640
experiences that we hear about

1749
01:03:03,670 --> 01:03:01,280
that the tools of evaluation for those

1750
01:03:05,349 --> 01:03:03,680
uh sort of stories

1751
01:03:07,750 --> 01:03:05,359
you know the the the kind of normal

1752
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:07,760
scientific analysis is is

1753
01:03:10,710 --> 01:03:09,200
you know a little bit difficult or

1754
01:03:12,150 --> 01:03:10,720
fleeting it becomes much more

1755
01:03:14,549 --> 01:03:12,160
psychological

1756
01:03:16,230 --> 01:03:14,559
uh a study of consciousness and and how

1757
01:03:19,510 --> 01:03:16,240
it works

1758
01:03:22,230 --> 01:03:19,520
how are we to really even

1759
01:03:24,789 --> 01:03:22,240
put together the right toolkit here

1760
01:03:26,549 --> 01:03:24,799
to to to say hey we're making progress

1761
01:03:28,230 --> 01:03:26,559
how will we even know we're making

1762
01:03:32,150 --> 01:03:28,240
progress in other words

1763
01:03:37,109 --> 01:03:34,870
yeah it's a good question um

1764
01:03:39,270 --> 01:03:37,119
i think that

1765
01:03:43,349 --> 01:03:39,280
part of the irony when i think about it

1766
01:03:47,589 --> 01:03:45,029
what science is supposed to be good

1767
01:03:49,109 --> 01:03:47,599
about doing and the reason why we we

1768
01:03:52,230 --> 01:03:49,119
have been so successful in terms of

1769
01:03:54,069 --> 01:03:52,240
developing technology around science

1770
01:03:55,670 --> 01:03:54,079
as the fruit of science

1771
01:03:57,589 --> 01:03:55,680
is that we've been able to isolate

1772
01:03:59,349 --> 01:03:57,599
factors and variables and say that when

1773
01:04:00,710 --> 01:03:59,359
we control for these variables this is

1774
01:04:02,789 --> 01:04:00,720
what happens therefore we can make this

1775
01:04:05,190 --> 01:04:02,799
prediction about nature and because

1776
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:05,200
we've been very diligent and objective

1777
01:04:09,750 --> 01:04:07,520
about that we make accurate predictions

1778
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:09,760
and that allows us to create technology

1779
01:04:13,029 --> 01:04:11,200
which harnesses the power of nature

1780
01:04:14,150 --> 01:04:13,039
which has transformed our civilization

1781
01:04:17,109 --> 01:04:14,160
right

1782
01:04:19,190 --> 01:04:17,119
and yet something as simple as

1783
01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:19,200
if you're dealing with an intelligence a

1784
01:04:24,230 --> 01:04:21,119
non-human intelligence potentially one

1785
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:24,240
that's even more sophisticated than you

1786
01:04:28,470 --> 01:04:26,880
your your variables are going to change

1787
01:04:30,309 --> 01:04:28,480
right and so

1788
01:04:31,750 --> 01:04:30,319
when you think about aws app you think

1789
01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:31,760
about the investigations they did at

1790
01:04:35,510 --> 01:04:33,760
skinwalker ranch and other places uh

1791
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:35,520
that are mentioned in skinwalkers at the

1792
01:04:38,069 --> 01:04:36,720
pentagon

1793
01:04:39,910 --> 01:04:38,079
um

1794
01:04:41,349 --> 01:04:39,920
they they tried to get video footage

1795
01:04:43,750 --> 01:04:41,359
right they tried to get photographic

1796
01:04:44,549 --> 01:04:43,760
footage they tried various sensor data

1797
01:04:46,230 --> 01:04:44,559
and

1798
01:04:49,109 --> 01:04:46,240
some sort of force

1799
01:04:50,710 --> 01:04:49,119
interfered with the sensors right would

1800
01:04:52,950 --> 01:04:50,720
shut off the camera right when something

1801
01:04:54,630 --> 01:04:52,960
was going to manifest um

1802
01:04:57,109 --> 01:04:54,640
and again i mentioned this several times

1803
01:04:59,910 --> 01:04:57,119
now but uh john alexander coined this

1804
01:05:01,829 --> 01:04:59,920
term precognitive sentient phenomena and

1805
01:05:03,190 --> 01:05:01,839
what he meant by that was

1806
01:05:05,109 --> 01:05:03,200
they know what we're going to do before

1807
01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:05,119
we do it and so of course that's going

1808
01:05:09,190 --> 01:05:06,960
to throw a wrench in your plans to try

1809
01:05:10,390 --> 01:05:09,200
and study this scientifically

1810
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:10,400
because

1811
01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:11,760
again

1812
01:05:15,670 --> 01:05:13,920
we assume that

1813
01:05:18,230 --> 01:05:15,680
if we control for variables they will

1814
01:05:20,710 --> 01:05:18,240
behave right but

1815
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:20,720
by the very nature of this phenomenon by

1816
01:05:24,390 --> 01:05:22,000
the very nature of this being an

1817
01:05:26,230 --> 01:05:24,400
intelligence involved

1818
01:05:27,990 --> 01:05:26,240
we cannot make those assumptions and we

1819
01:05:30,150 --> 01:05:28,000
see all sorts of evidence that they do

1820
01:05:32,950 --> 01:05:30,160
change things and on top of that they

1821
01:05:35,109 --> 01:05:32,960
seem to be able to experience reality

1822
01:05:36,470 --> 01:05:35,119
in a non-linear way in terms of time

1823
01:05:39,190 --> 01:05:36,480
space time

1824
01:05:43,029 --> 01:05:41,510
what that should do is

1825
01:05:44,870 --> 01:05:43,039
make us go back to the drawing board and

1826
01:05:47,750 --> 01:05:44,880
say wait a second we've got a whole new

1827
01:05:50,309 --> 01:05:47,760
data set here saying that

1828
01:05:52,069 --> 01:05:50,319
an experience of non-linear time exists

1829
01:05:53,829 --> 01:05:52,079
right by the way this has also

1830
01:05:55,349 --> 01:05:53,839
come out of the parapsychological

1831
01:05:57,990 --> 01:05:55,359
research too although the scientific

1832
01:06:00,309 --> 01:05:58,000
community largely ignores that as well

1833
01:06:02,789 --> 01:06:00,319
those should be opportunities to open

1834
01:06:03,510 --> 01:06:02,799
the aperture so to speak and say how do

1835
01:06:07,029 --> 01:06:03,520
we

1836
01:06:09,029 --> 01:06:07,039
experiments

1837
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:09,039
where maybe the first thing we do is we

1838
01:06:13,829 --> 01:06:12,559
try and find evidence of manipulation of

1839
01:06:15,750 --> 01:06:13,839
space-time

1840
01:06:17,430 --> 01:06:15,760
and then from there we develop a further

1841
01:06:21,109 --> 01:06:17,440
theory or a further hypothesis that we

1842
01:06:23,670 --> 01:06:21,119
test but if we rigidly stick to our

1843
01:06:25,589 --> 01:06:23,680
pre-existing notions about how variables

1844
01:06:27,990 --> 01:06:25,599
will behave

1845
01:06:29,510 --> 01:06:28,000
then this phenomenon has shown time and

1846
01:06:31,990 --> 01:06:29,520
time again it will not play well with

1847
01:06:34,230 --> 01:06:32,000
that and we we won't make progress so

1848
01:06:35,750 --> 01:06:34,240
again it's it's really about the people

1849
01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:35,760
that are willing to come along and be

1850
01:06:38,309 --> 01:06:37,280
trailblazers

1851
01:06:40,309 --> 01:06:38,319
and

1852
01:06:42,150 --> 01:06:40,319
they have to fight that really tricky

1853
01:06:44,950 --> 01:06:42,160
battle of getting enough funding enough

1854
01:06:47,349 --> 01:06:44,960
interest not be too crazy in the

1855
01:06:49,589 --> 01:06:47,359
mainstream's eyes to keep moving forward

1856
01:06:51,190 --> 01:06:49,599
and i see certain there's a certain

1857
01:06:53,750 --> 01:06:51,200
small number you can count them so

1858
01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:53,760
almost one hand maybe two

1859
01:06:57,349 --> 01:06:55,520
of those scientists who are still very

1860
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:57,359
much in the mainstream they're respected

1861
01:07:01,589 --> 01:06:59,440
and they're trying to

1862
01:07:03,670 --> 01:07:01,599
produce evidence you know gary nolan

1863
01:07:05,670 --> 01:07:03,680
jacques villa people like that

1864
01:07:07,589 --> 01:07:05,680
and get it peer reviewed as well because

1865
01:07:09,190 --> 01:07:07,599
when you get it peer reviewed

1866
01:07:10,789 --> 01:07:09,200
now you now you've got people

1867
01:07:13,430 --> 01:07:10,799
acknowledging that this is not just your

1868
01:07:15,190 --> 01:07:13,440
fanciful thinking this is not your bias

1869
01:07:17,270 --> 01:07:15,200
this is evidenced

1870
01:07:18,710 --> 01:07:17,280
from multiple experiments

1871
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:18,720
so

1872
01:07:22,789 --> 01:07:21,280
again happening slowly but surely uh and

1873
01:07:24,789 --> 01:07:22,799
all we can hope is that there'll be more

1874
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:24,799
more people willing to take up take up

1875
01:07:29,750 --> 01:07:26,960
data that process

1876
01:07:32,069 --> 01:07:29,760
and do you think that ultimately we will

1877
01:07:34,390 --> 01:07:32,079
need at some point we will hit a wall we

1878
01:07:37,430 --> 01:07:34,400
will need the assistance or the

1879
01:07:39,829 --> 01:07:37,440
the uh cooperation of the intel of the

1880
01:07:41,589 --> 01:07:39,839
other intelligence itself that

1881
01:07:44,150 --> 01:07:41,599
you know i would think that there's

1882
01:07:46,390 --> 01:07:44,160
there's only so much we can learn

1883
01:07:49,109 --> 01:07:46,400
through the effects of whatever it is

1884
01:07:50,309 --> 01:07:49,119
about it's its nature its intentions its

1885
01:07:52,390 --> 01:07:50,319
thinking

1886
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:52,400
uh you know to the extent that we can

1887
01:07:56,549 --> 01:07:54,079
even understand

1888
01:07:58,150 --> 01:07:56,559
its way of thinking uh

1889
01:08:00,150 --> 01:07:58,160
you know we would at least need some

1890
01:08:02,789 --> 01:08:00,160
level of engagement

1891
01:08:03,750 --> 01:08:02,799
uh to try to do that kind of translation

1892
01:08:06,470 --> 01:08:03,760
effort

1893
01:08:08,950 --> 01:08:06,480
uh to help us better understand but i

1894
01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:08,960
also i guess think too in that process

1895
01:08:14,230 --> 01:08:11,440
you know this is the sort of power of of

1896
01:08:17,030 --> 01:08:14,240
ideas themselves that it doesn't

1897
01:08:18,870 --> 01:08:17,040
necessarily take a postulation that

1898
01:08:21,269 --> 01:08:18,880
there's a non-human intelligence to

1899
01:08:23,349 --> 01:08:21,279
drive our science drive our

1900
01:08:25,749 --> 01:08:23,359
understanding drive our

1901
01:08:27,430 --> 01:08:25,759
are thinking that there is another and

1902
01:08:31,269 --> 01:08:27,440
other intelligence

1903
01:08:33,269 --> 01:08:31,279
vaster than our own i mean any kind of

1904
01:08:35,349 --> 01:08:33,279
state for example

1905
01:08:37,990 --> 01:08:35,359
that is trying to outwit

1906
01:08:39,510 --> 01:08:38,000
their adversaries is going to assume

1907
01:08:40,950 --> 01:08:39,520
their adversaries

1908
01:08:42,390 --> 01:08:40,960
have some

1909
01:08:45,990 --> 01:08:42,400
sort of level

1910
01:08:48,550 --> 01:08:46,000
uh of gamesmanship or or technology that

1911
01:08:50,789 --> 01:08:48,560
that their own technology

1912
01:08:53,349 --> 01:08:50,799
or way of thinking can't predict for so

1913
01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:53,359
you you you sub in

1914
01:08:57,910 --> 01:08:55,839
in in an imaginative way not having

1915
01:09:00,550 --> 01:08:57,920
access to what they really know

1916
01:09:02,709 --> 01:09:00,560
a an adversary and using that word just

1917
01:09:04,229 --> 01:09:02,719
for the purpose of this you know

1918
01:09:07,030 --> 01:09:04,239
discussion right

1919
01:09:10,070 --> 01:09:07,040
that that helps push and drive the

1920
01:09:12,950 --> 01:09:10,080
discovery and the methodologies and the

1921
01:09:15,510 --> 01:09:12,960
and the science that you develop so it

1922
01:09:17,110 --> 01:09:15,520
it's interesting how we have this unique

1923
01:09:19,349 --> 01:09:17,120
capability

1924
01:09:20,789 --> 01:09:19,359
in other words to advance our

1925
01:09:23,990 --> 01:09:20,799
understanding

1926
01:09:26,950 --> 01:09:24,000
uh against what could very well be

1927
01:09:29,189 --> 01:09:26,960
nothing you know like you know it's it

1928
01:09:31,510 --> 01:09:29,199
could be purely imaginative but it still

1929
01:09:33,590 --> 01:09:31,520
pushes us forward um and it says

1930
01:09:35,669 --> 01:09:33,600
something about the nature of i guess

1931
01:09:36,550 --> 01:09:35,679
really are the qualities of of what we

1932
01:09:39,349 --> 01:09:36,560
are

1933
01:09:43,430 --> 01:09:39,359
uh but also perhaps even to some degree

1934
01:09:44,870 --> 01:09:43,440
the universe uh i think and and it's

1935
01:09:47,510 --> 01:09:44,880
because we are part of it you know

1936
01:09:48,709 --> 01:09:47,520
driving us toward this sense of grander

1937
01:09:52,309 --> 01:09:48,719
awareness

1938
01:09:54,470 --> 01:09:52,319
uh in this relationship that is not

1939
01:09:56,870 --> 01:09:54,480
really ever

1940
01:09:59,350 --> 01:09:56,880
fully known and i and i suppose that

1941
01:10:01,189 --> 01:09:59,360
that's true for any relationship

1942
01:10:03,510 --> 01:10:01,199
you know relationship with a partner or

1943
01:10:05,590 --> 01:10:03,520
whatever you know them but you know

1944
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:05,600
their external life and the longer you

1945
01:10:09,430 --> 01:10:06,960
know them you start to sort of

1946
01:10:11,830 --> 01:10:09,440
understand their internal life but

1947
01:10:14,870 --> 01:10:11,840
you never know them

1948
01:10:17,830 --> 01:10:14,880
so so so what who who you relate to is

1949
01:10:20,070 --> 01:10:17,840
something that you have created

1950
01:10:22,870 --> 01:10:20,080
you know so this is always a facet of

1951
01:10:25,189 --> 01:10:22,880
our relationship with any other

1952
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:25,199
and so i do wonder

1953
01:10:29,270 --> 01:10:27,360
as this moves forward and as we

1954
01:10:31,830 --> 01:10:29,280
hopefully start to get you know more

1955
01:10:32,630 --> 01:10:31,840
facts and data on on what's really going

1956
01:10:34,870 --> 01:10:32,640
on

1957
01:10:37,510 --> 01:10:34,880
you know to what degree

1958
01:10:38,630 --> 01:10:37,520
are we changed by those revelations but

1959
01:10:45,030 --> 01:10:38,640
then

1960
01:10:48,550 --> 01:10:45,040
bring in other elements that that are

1961
01:10:50,870 --> 01:10:48,560
that arise out of our imaginations in

1962
01:10:51,910 --> 01:10:50,880
response to those new revelations that

1963
01:10:55,510 --> 01:10:51,920
that may

1964
01:10:57,350 --> 01:10:55,520
may or may not even be real

1965
01:10:58,790 --> 01:10:57,360
yes it's interesting

1966
01:11:01,590 --> 01:10:58,800
when you brought up

1967
01:11:03,430 --> 01:11:01,600
how we sometimes pursue knowledge or

1968
01:11:05,990 --> 01:11:03,440
endeavors based on what we perceive our

1969
01:11:06,950 --> 01:11:06,000
adversaries may be doing

1970
01:11:08,790 --> 01:11:06,960
and

1971
01:11:09,910 --> 01:11:08,800
to some extent we are sort of

1972
01:11:12,310 --> 01:11:09,920
trying to

1973
01:11:14,070 --> 01:11:12,320
develop those assumptions based on

1974
01:11:16,310 --> 01:11:14,080
silence sometimes but we're it's

1975
01:11:18,550 --> 01:11:16,320
educated silence and so i was thinking

1976
01:11:21,350 --> 01:11:18,560
about how for instance the the remote

1977
01:11:22,709 --> 01:11:21,360
viewing program in the 70s

1978
01:11:24,070 --> 01:11:22,719
at sri

1979
01:11:26,229 --> 01:11:24,080
we've talked about several times in this

1980
01:11:28,229 --> 01:11:26,239
podcast what some people might not be

1981
01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:28,239
aware of is that the reason why the us

1982
01:11:32,790 --> 01:11:31,120
government intelligence community

1983
01:11:35,189 --> 01:11:32,800
decided they were willing to explore

1984
01:11:36,709 --> 01:11:35,199
this is because they gained intelligence

1985
01:11:38,229 --> 01:11:36,719
suggesting the soviets were already

1986
01:11:39,910 --> 01:11:38,239
doing it right

1987
01:11:43,110 --> 01:11:39,920
and so even though there was all sorts

1988
01:11:45,430 --> 01:11:43,120
of religious opposition to this kind of

1989
01:11:47,990 --> 01:11:45,440
uh way of gaining intelligence that some

1990
01:11:49,750 --> 01:11:48,000
people just saw it as nefarious and dark

1991
01:11:51,430 --> 01:11:49,760
uh and spiritual ultimately and you

1992
01:11:53,030 --> 01:11:51,440
shouldn't mess with it

1993
01:11:55,110 --> 01:11:53,040
in the midst of a cold war if you're

1994
01:11:57,270 --> 01:11:55,120
concerned that your adversary is going

1995
01:11:59,110 --> 01:11:57,280
to develop a methodology

1996
01:12:00,790 --> 01:11:59,120
a technology

1997
01:12:02,709 --> 01:12:00,800
even if it's an inner science kind of

1998
01:12:03,990 --> 01:12:02,719
thing that they can use against you then

1999
01:12:08,790 --> 01:12:04,000
by

2000
01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:08,800
but to do that so that's interesting

2001
01:12:12,550 --> 01:12:11,040
first of all

2002
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:12,560
another point you raise that i think is

2003
01:12:16,310 --> 01:12:14,400
really interesting and it's the x factor

2004
01:12:19,110 --> 01:12:16,320
in all of this is is what role the

2005
01:12:20,790 --> 01:12:19,120
phenomenon plays in in the future

2006
01:12:23,350 --> 01:12:20,800
in terms of how we

2007
01:12:25,270 --> 01:12:23,360
embrace this topic

2008
01:12:27,189 --> 01:12:25,280
you know i i think one thing i think a

2009
01:12:28,149 --> 01:12:27,199
lot about and i think i've mentioned on

2010
01:12:32,229 --> 01:12:28,159
here

2011
01:12:33,990 --> 01:12:32,239
behavior

2012
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:34,000
by

2013
01:12:39,910 --> 01:12:36,880
one aspect of the phenomenon anyway

2014
01:12:42,470 --> 01:12:39,920
in engaging with our military so uh you

2015
01:12:45,510 --> 01:12:42,480
know our naval ships and whatnot

2016
01:12:47,830 --> 01:12:45,520
out in the oceans are again encountering

2017
01:12:48,709 --> 01:12:47,840
these things regularly

2018
01:12:51,350 --> 01:12:48,719
um

2019
01:12:53,270 --> 01:12:51,360
and and while some politicians and some

2020
01:12:55,350 --> 01:12:53,280
of the public still debate is just like

2021
01:12:57,910 --> 01:12:55,360
chinese or russian drones

2022
01:12:58,870 --> 01:12:57,920
anybody who really has looked at this

2023
01:13:00,390 --> 01:12:58,880
uh

2024
01:13:02,790 --> 01:13:00,400
says over and over again

2025
01:13:04,950 --> 01:13:02,800
this is beyond next level technology

2026
01:13:06,870 --> 01:13:04,960
this is something that no human

2027
01:13:08,229 --> 01:13:06,880
civilization unless it's some sort of

2028
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:08,239
rogue

2029
01:13:12,870 --> 01:13:10,159
civilization that exists that we haven't

2030
01:13:15,990 --> 01:13:12,880
been aware of um

2031
01:13:17,830 --> 01:13:16,000
this is not a normal uh nation-state

2032
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:17,840
player that we're aware of it's just no

2033
01:13:21,669 --> 01:13:20,050
one has that kind of technology

2034
01:13:22,550 --> 01:13:21,679
[Music]

2035
01:13:24,390 --> 01:13:22,560
and so

2036
01:13:26,950 --> 01:13:24,400
the fact that they've been so brazen and

2037
01:13:27,990 --> 01:13:26,960
it seems to be increasing both the

2038
01:13:32,149 --> 01:13:28,000
um

2039
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:32,159
again the nature of the sighting seems

2040
01:13:35,910 --> 01:13:33,600
to be much more

2041
01:13:38,390 --> 01:13:35,920
like in your face kind of thing

2042
01:13:40,310 --> 01:13:38,400
and so you wonder what is that about

2043
01:13:42,229 --> 01:13:40,320
that's that's a really fascinating

2044
01:13:44,390 --> 01:13:42,239
question for me is that

2045
01:13:46,470 --> 01:13:44,400
um in the same way that we developed a

2046
01:13:47,910 --> 01:13:46,480
remote a remote viewing program

2047
01:13:51,110 --> 01:13:47,920
out of necessity because we were

2048
01:13:52,630 --> 01:13:51,120
concerned the soviets were doing so

2049
01:13:54,630 --> 01:13:52,640
if this

2050
01:13:56,310 --> 01:13:54,640
force whatever it is these

2051
01:13:57,990 --> 01:13:56,320
this element of the phenomenon that is

2052
01:14:00,310 --> 01:13:58,000
engaging with our military keeps doing

2053
01:14:01,590 --> 01:14:00,320
so increase and keeps increasing the way

2054
01:14:03,669 --> 01:14:01,600
it's doing so

2055
01:14:05,910 --> 01:14:03,679
again by necessity we will have no

2056
01:14:08,149 --> 01:14:05,920
choice but to ramp up our efforts to

2057
01:14:10,630 --> 01:14:08,159
understand what it is right

2058
01:14:13,510 --> 01:14:10,640
um and that may be the x factor in all

2059
01:14:15,990 --> 01:14:13,520
this they may be

2060
01:14:18,390 --> 01:14:16,000
you know pushing the envelope as a way

2061
01:14:20,709 --> 01:14:18,400
to get us to engage uh it's hard to see

2062
01:14:22,390 --> 01:14:20,719
it in any other way unless we

2063
01:14:23,990 --> 01:14:22,400
unless you can sort of frame it as we

2064
01:14:25,270 --> 01:14:24,000
are somehow

2065
01:14:26,390 --> 01:14:25,280
again

2066
01:14:27,910 --> 01:14:26,400
you know

2067
01:14:29,590 --> 01:14:27,920
engaging in some sort of behavior that

2068
01:14:31,270 --> 01:14:29,600
they're now seeing as a threat and

2069
01:14:33,030 --> 01:14:31,280
that's why they're engaging with us you

2070
01:14:35,750 --> 01:14:33,040
know that's possible

2071
01:14:37,510 --> 01:14:35,760
but uh

2072
01:14:38,950 --> 01:14:37,520
i don't know it's it's interesting and

2073
01:14:41,189 --> 01:14:38,960
when you think about jacques villa and

2074
01:14:43,270 --> 01:14:41,199
his control system hypothesis

2075
01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:43,280
that's sort of a really overarching view

2076
01:14:51,030 --> 01:14:48,790
you know

2077
01:14:52,709 --> 01:14:51,040
there are forces

2078
01:14:54,550 --> 01:14:52,719
boundaries

2079
01:14:57,910 --> 01:14:54,560
response systems

2080
01:15:00,229 --> 01:14:57,920
that are slowly but surely

2081
01:15:02,950 --> 01:15:00,239
managing our evolution and that we may

2082
01:15:04,390 --> 01:15:02,960
never see it firsthand we only see the

2083
01:15:05,990 --> 01:15:04,400
the effects of it kind of like the wind

2084
01:15:07,750 --> 01:15:06,000
right you see the flag moving so you

2085
01:15:09,350 --> 01:15:07,760
know there's wind

2086
01:15:10,790 --> 01:15:09,360
that may be what's going on with some

2087
01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:10,800
elements of the phenomenon and again

2088
01:15:14,790 --> 01:15:13,199
part of the challenge here is that

2089
01:15:16,709 --> 01:15:14,800
people want to reduce it to one thing

2090
01:15:19,189 --> 01:15:16,719
and as you know my big thing is don't do

2091
01:15:20,229 --> 01:15:19,199
that prematurely so i don't know that

2092
01:15:27,669 --> 01:15:20,239
the

2093
01:15:29,270 --> 01:15:27,679
valet is imagining as this overarching

2094
01:15:30,950 --> 01:15:29,280
control system

2095
01:15:32,630 --> 01:15:30,960
but whether they are

2096
01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:32,640
slowly but surely

2097
01:15:38,070 --> 01:15:35,679
preparing us perhaps over over centuries

2098
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:38,080
right to eventually acknowledge and

2099
01:15:42,229 --> 01:15:40,080
recognize their existence

2100
01:15:43,110 --> 01:15:42,239
or is something and it's it's much more

2101
01:15:45,110 --> 01:15:43,120
you know

2102
01:15:46,630 --> 01:15:45,120
big picture so abstract that we can

2103
01:15:48,950 --> 01:15:46,640
never see it for what it really is but

2104
01:15:51,270 --> 01:15:48,960
it still has its it still plays its role

2105
01:15:53,510 --> 01:15:51,280
of ultimately changing us managing our

2106
01:15:55,830 --> 01:15:53,520
evolution or it's something much more

2107
01:15:58,390 --> 01:15:55,840
direct like these

2108
01:16:00,550 --> 01:15:58,400
again these craft these phenomena

2109
01:16:03,270 --> 01:16:00,560
uh manifesting out in the oceans

2110
01:16:05,590 --> 01:16:03,280
challenging our military um

2111
01:16:07,270 --> 01:16:05,600
you know uh we think again of david

2112
01:16:08,950 --> 01:16:07,280
fravor you know and he one of the things

2113
01:16:11,110 --> 01:16:08,960
that was amazing about the whole nimitz

2114
01:16:13,510 --> 01:16:11,120
tic tac thing was that again speaking of

2115
01:16:15,350 --> 01:16:13,520
precognitive sentient phenomena they

2116
01:16:18,149 --> 01:16:15,360
know they knew what the rendezvous point

2117
01:16:20,390 --> 01:16:18,159
was before it had even been acknowledged

2118
01:16:22,149 --> 01:16:20,400
before it even talked about so

2119
01:16:24,630 --> 01:16:22,159
again when you

2120
01:16:26,790 --> 01:16:24,640
wrestle with that data point you say all

2121
01:16:28,630 --> 01:16:26,800
of our usual ways of studying this

2122
01:16:30,070 --> 01:16:28,640
scientifically will be challenged

2123
01:16:31,750 --> 01:16:30,080
because

2124
01:16:33,669 --> 01:16:31,760
if you throw out

2125
01:16:35,590 --> 01:16:33,679
the um

2126
01:16:38,070 --> 01:16:35,600
you know time and space the way we think

2127
01:16:39,910 --> 01:16:38,080
it should roll out then it really opens

2128
01:16:40,709 --> 01:16:39,920
up so many new questions and that should

2129
01:16:41,750 --> 01:16:40,719
be

2130
01:16:44,229 --> 01:16:41,760
um

2131
01:16:46,310 --> 01:16:44,239
the fruit for for new understandings for

2132
01:16:48,390 --> 01:16:46,320
new questions to ask for new avenues to

2133
01:16:49,669 --> 01:16:48,400
pursue we can only hope that's going to

2134
01:16:51,830 --> 01:16:49,679
happen

2135
01:16:54,870 --> 01:16:51,840
but again for me the most intriguing

2136
01:16:56,709 --> 01:16:54,880
question in the entire phenomenon is

2137
01:16:59,350 --> 01:16:56,719
is it ramping up certainly seems like

2138
01:17:01,830 --> 01:16:59,360
you could argue it is and if it is to

2139
01:17:05,189 --> 01:17:01,840
what end

2140
01:17:07,590 --> 01:17:05,199
that's an excellent point the

2141
01:17:09,990 --> 01:17:07,600
ways in that it might be provoking us

2142
01:17:11,830 --> 01:17:10,000
and i think to

2143
01:17:13,310 --> 01:17:11,840
whether

2144
01:17:14,790 --> 01:17:13,320
i come back to this

2145
01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:14,800
[Music]

2146
01:17:20,470 --> 01:17:17,120
whether it's there or not the moment

2147
01:17:22,709 --> 01:17:20,480
that we as a species

2148
01:17:25,030 --> 01:17:22,719
emerged to the point where we looked up

2149
01:17:26,709 --> 01:17:25,040
and we we asked the questions what is

2150
01:17:28,790 --> 01:17:26,719
this what does it mean

2151
01:17:31,990 --> 01:17:28,800
you know these are lures and prompts

2152
01:17:34,870 --> 01:17:32,000
that continue to propel us forward and

2153
01:17:35,830 --> 01:17:34,880
through each new discovery that we make

2154
01:17:41,030 --> 01:17:35,840
they

2155
01:17:44,470 --> 01:17:41,040
us to make additional discoveries

2156
01:17:46,790 --> 01:17:44,480
so it's um it's it's it's almost you

2157
01:17:48,790 --> 01:17:46,800
know one one could argue that there's

2158
01:17:50,870 --> 01:17:48,800
there's this uh

2159
01:17:53,510 --> 01:17:50,880
you know hidden hidden hand as you said

2160
01:17:56,070 --> 01:17:53,520
that this wind this force that is

2161
01:17:59,350 --> 01:17:56,080
guiding us to in a direction

2162
01:18:01,030 --> 01:17:59,360
uh that you know intelligent or not is

2163
01:18:03,350 --> 01:18:01,040
still at play

2164
01:18:04,229 --> 01:18:03,360
uh in our in our story

2165
01:18:06,709 --> 01:18:04,239
and

2166
01:18:08,310 --> 01:18:06,719
you know i do wonder

2167
01:18:10,229 --> 01:18:08,320
are we coming are we coming is that

2168
01:18:11,590 --> 01:18:10,239
coming to a head is there a point that

2169
01:18:13,510 --> 01:18:11,600
we are reaching

2170
01:18:15,189 --> 01:18:13,520
soon at which

2171
01:18:17,750 --> 01:18:15,199
our advancement

2172
01:18:21,669 --> 01:18:17,760
our behavior our knowledge

2173
01:18:23,590 --> 01:18:21,679
is uh soon intersecting with

2174
01:18:25,669 --> 01:18:23,600
that other knowledge in a way that that

2175
01:18:27,510 --> 01:18:25,679
we can no longer

2176
01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:27,520
you know kind of skirt past each other

2177
01:18:31,990 --> 01:18:30,000
that that that those boundaries

2178
01:18:35,430 --> 01:18:32,000
are becoming porous that they will bleed

2179
01:18:37,510 --> 01:18:35,440
into each other and become entwined and

2180
01:18:39,030 --> 01:18:37,520
and what happens then what happens then

2181
01:18:42,070 --> 01:18:39,040
as new knowledge

2182
01:18:43,669 --> 01:18:42,080
is gained new relationships emerge you

2183
01:18:46,630 --> 01:18:43,679
know what new

2184
01:18:48,630 --> 01:18:46,640
lures arise in our minds and our in our

2185
01:18:51,110 --> 01:18:48,640
lived experience that that are going to

2186
01:18:53,189 --> 01:18:51,120
drive us further and because it strikes

2187
01:18:55,750 --> 01:18:53,199
me that it's not going to be

2188
01:18:58,229 --> 01:18:55,760
this sort of uh

2189
01:19:00,149 --> 01:18:58,239
pure one one-sided exchange we're gonna

2190
01:19:02,149 --> 01:19:00,159
get some kind of you know amazing

2191
01:19:04,550 --> 01:19:02,159
technology or whatever and then we're

2192
01:19:08,070 --> 01:19:04,560
just gonna sit on our laurels and use it

2193
01:19:10,870 --> 01:19:08,080
and not and not also want ourselves to

2194
01:19:12,310 --> 01:19:10,880
to make advances or do other things with

2195
01:19:14,550 --> 01:19:12,320
with the discoveries that those

2196
01:19:17,430 --> 01:19:14,560
technologies provide so

2197
01:19:18,310 --> 01:19:17,440
you know knowledge is is a dance and

2198
01:19:19,990 --> 01:19:18,320
i would

2199
01:19:22,310 --> 01:19:20,000
unless they've discovered all there is

2200
01:19:25,110 --> 01:19:22,320
to discover i i would like to believe

2201
01:19:27,910 --> 01:19:25,120
that we're going to add to that overall

2202
01:19:29,990 --> 01:19:27,920
equation and bring our humanness our

2203
01:19:32,550 --> 01:19:30,000
human elements to it

2204
01:19:35,030 --> 01:19:32,560
in ways that will be

2205
01:19:37,110 --> 01:19:35,040
incredibly valuable for our human

2206
01:19:39,270 --> 01:19:37,120
culture but i would also like to thank

2207
01:19:42,310 --> 01:19:39,280
for the culture of whatever it is that

2208
01:19:44,630 --> 01:19:42,320
that is out there as well

2209
01:19:47,350 --> 01:19:44,640
yeah fascinating questions and you know

2210
01:19:50,229 --> 01:19:47,360
a couple of things come to mind uh

2211
01:19:51,910 --> 01:19:50,239
in this number one um i recently heard

2212
01:19:53,910 --> 01:19:51,920
an interview with gary nolan where he

2213
01:19:56,709 --> 01:19:53,920
was talking about

2214
01:19:59,750 --> 01:19:56,719
you know what if it's the case that

2215
01:20:01,830 --> 01:19:59,760
in ancient history when our notion our

2216
01:20:04,070 --> 01:20:01,840
narrative our overarching narrative that

2217
01:20:05,990 --> 01:20:04,080
we use to make sense of the world was

2218
01:20:08,629 --> 01:20:06,000
that there was these religious figures

2219
01:20:10,390 --> 01:20:08,639
right that ruled the cosmos

2220
01:20:12,149 --> 01:20:10,400
then they would manifest as a religious

2221
01:20:13,669 --> 01:20:12,159
figure right

2222
01:20:14,629 --> 01:20:13,679
moses on the mountain whatever you want

2223
01:20:17,590 --> 01:20:14,639
to say

2224
01:20:18,950 --> 01:20:17,600
uh you know and and receiving tablets of

2225
01:20:21,270 --> 01:20:18,960
truth

2226
01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:21,280
by some sort of mysterious force

2227
01:20:25,030 --> 01:20:22,800
you know that

2228
01:20:27,189 --> 01:20:25,040
the way that they um worked with us then

2229
01:20:28,790 --> 01:20:27,199
was because that was our expectation our

2230
01:20:31,030 --> 01:20:28,800
cultural framing

2231
01:20:33,990 --> 01:20:31,040
they gave us what we needed within that

2232
01:20:36,870 --> 01:20:34,000
frame so we could keep moving forward

2233
01:20:39,189 --> 01:20:36,880
and nolan's point was in the 21st

2234
01:20:41,189 --> 01:20:39,199
century not so many people lean on

2235
01:20:42,310 --> 01:20:41,199
religion as an overarching narrative

2236
01:20:45,030 --> 01:20:42,320
structure

2237
01:20:47,189 --> 01:20:45,040
but again we've traded religion

2238
01:20:48,790 --> 01:20:47,199
for scientism in many ways we've we've

2239
01:20:49,990 --> 01:20:48,800
embraced science we've embraced

2240
01:20:51,990 --> 01:20:50,000
technology

2241
01:20:54,229 --> 01:20:52,000
as a kind of savior that uh you know

2242
01:20:56,229 --> 01:20:54,239
even the post-humanism movement is all

2243
01:20:57,910 --> 01:20:56,239
about uploading our consciousness even

2244
01:20:59,270 --> 01:20:57,920
though i think that that's a misnomer

2245
01:21:00,950 --> 01:20:59,280
that's a categorical error what

2246
01:21:02,470 --> 01:21:00,960
consciousness is

2247
01:21:05,270 --> 01:21:02,480
but nevertheless

2248
01:21:07,189 --> 01:21:05,280
our expectation now is that the holy

2249
01:21:09,270 --> 01:21:07,199
grail is technology right that's that's

2250
01:21:12,629 --> 01:21:09,280
where our expectation is our excitement

2251
01:21:15,030 --> 01:21:12,639
is so now they manifest as technology as

2252
01:21:16,870 --> 01:21:15,040
technological devices that

2253
01:21:18,629 --> 01:21:16,880
intrigue us and

2254
01:21:21,030 --> 01:21:18,639
titillate us to some degree you know

2255
01:21:22,390 --> 01:21:21,040
that again it could be that those are

2256
01:21:25,990 --> 01:21:22,400
the same

2257
01:21:27,270 --> 01:21:26,000
manifested as a religious figure or a

2258
01:21:29,750 --> 01:21:27,280
burning bush

2259
01:21:31,669 --> 01:21:29,760
is now manifesting as a tic tac you know

2260
01:21:33,750 --> 01:21:31,679
it's it's worth thinking about we don't

2261
01:21:35,750 --> 01:21:33,760
know that again i i think to what i said

2262
01:21:37,990 --> 01:21:35,760
to you last time about

2263
01:21:39,430 --> 01:21:38,000
the difference between uh different

2264
01:21:41,510 --> 01:21:39,440
beings and just

2265
01:21:42,790 --> 01:21:41,520
the territory and

2266
01:21:45,030 --> 01:21:42,800
being part of a multi-dimensional

2267
01:21:47,350 --> 01:21:45,040
universe means many different creatures

2268
01:21:49,030 --> 01:21:47,360
and intelligences will manifest but we

2269
01:21:50,070 --> 01:21:49,040
should at least be open to the notion

2270
01:21:51,430 --> 01:21:50,080
that

2271
01:21:55,110 --> 01:21:51,440
what if it is an overarching

2272
01:21:58,390 --> 01:21:55,120
intelligence and the way they manifest

2273
01:22:01,270 --> 01:21:58,400
adapts over time to help us move forward

2274
01:22:02,950 --> 01:22:01,280
in whatever era we are in and within the

2275
01:22:07,510 --> 01:22:02,960
framing of whatever our cultural

2276
01:22:12,149 --> 01:22:09,189
i want to

2277
01:22:14,310 --> 01:22:12,159
conclude this episode with

2278
01:22:17,030 --> 01:22:14,320
you know kind of bringing it back to in

2279
01:22:20,550 --> 01:22:17,040
a way where we started and that's the

2280
01:22:21,669 --> 01:22:20,560
you know experience of the individual

2281
01:22:23,350 --> 01:22:21,679
and

2282
01:22:26,390 --> 01:22:23,360
you know kind of advice that we might

2283
01:22:29,910 --> 01:22:26,400
give or ways we might think about

2284
01:22:31,830 --> 01:22:29,920
are our experience of of this topic in

2285
01:22:33,110 --> 01:22:31,840
the moment and as and how it's

2286
01:22:35,510 --> 01:22:33,120
progressing

2287
01:22:38,950 --> 01:22:35,520
in our involvement with it on a

2288
01:22:40,790 --> 01:22:38,960
cognitive level but an emotional level

2289
01:22:41,830 --> 01:22:40,800
a cultural level

2290
01:22:43,189 --> 01:22:41,840
and

2291
01:22:45,350 --> 01:22:43,199
you know one of the things that i think

2292
01:22:46,629 --> 01:22:45,360
we really feel strongly about on this

2293
01:22:49,830 --> 01:22:46,639
show is

2294
01:22:51,189 --> 01:22:49,840
is is creating an environment where

2295
01:22:53,750 --> 01:22:51,199
we can

2296
01:22:54,950 --> 01:22:53,760
you know have have meaningful valuable

2297
01:22:57,590 --> 01:22:54,960
discussion

2298
01:22:59,430 --> 01:22:57,600
that that also kind of elevates and

2299
01:23:00,709 --> 01:22:59,440
raises our ability to think through

2300
01:23:03,350 --> 01:23:00,719
these issues

2301
01:23:06,790 --> 01:23:03,360
and beyond just the surface level you

2302
01:23:08,229 --> 01:23:06,800
know we really want folks to be able to

2303
01:23:10,470 --> 01:23:08,239
enjoy

2304
01:23:13,270 --> 01:23:10,480
the pursuit of this topic and all the

2305
01:23:14,870 --> 01:23:13,280
kinds of things that that it involves

2306
01:23:17,990 --> 01:23:14,880
because it for me at least it's

2307
01:23:19,750 --> 01:23:18,000
incredibly energizing and interesting

2308
01:23:21,830 --> 01:23:19,760
yet at the same time

2309
01:23:24,470 --> 01:23:21,840
provide everyone with

2310
01:23:27,510 --> 01:23:24,480
uh you know a toolkit a toolkit that

2311
01:23:29,189 --> 01:23:27,520
they can bring to bear on the literature

2312
01:23:31,669 --> 01:23:29,199
the experiences

2313
01:23:34,310 --> 01:23:31,679
uh the legislation that is happening

2314
01:23:35,430 --> 01:23:34,320
whatever may come from that the private

2315
01:23:37,750 --> 01:23:35,440
group

2316
01:23:39,430 --> 01:23:37,760
exercises that are underway and whatever

2317
01:23:40,950 --> 01:23:39,440
revelations may come from those

2318
01:23:43,189 --> 01:23:40,960
endeavors

2319
01:23:45,189 --> 01:23:43,199
regardless of where the knowledge and

2320
01:23:48,709 --> 01:23:45,199
information comes from

2321
01:23:49,990 --> 01:23:48,719
being able to provide folks with just a

2322
01:23:53,030 --> 01:23:50,000
language

2323
01:23:55,669 --> 01:23:53,040
that they can interact with this content

2324
01:23:58,629 --> 01:23:55,679
that is not one-dimensional

2325
01:24:01,430 --> 01:23:58,639
and i think the the value of that is

2326
01:24:03,830 --> 01:24:01,440
that we are not one-dimensional so you

2327
01:24:06,149 --> 01:24:03,840
know if we are honest with ourselves

2328
01:24:07,990 --> 01:24:06,159
uh everyone who interacts with this

2329
01:24:10,229 --> 01:24:08,000
subject is going to interact with it in

2330
01:24:12,470 --> 01:24:10,239
a different way some from a very

2331
01:24:15,350 --> 01:24:12,480
personal place or they've had a unique

2332
01:24:17,430 --> 01:24:15,360
experience some from a purely

2333
01:24:19,189 --> 01:24:17,440
sort of cognitive dry

2334
01:24:21,910 --> 01:24:19,199
rational place

2335
01:24:23,830 --> 01:24:21,920
and then everything in between and so if

2336
01:24:26,629 --> 01:24:23,840
we're going to kind of navigate all of

2337
01:24:29,189 --> 01:24:26,639
those different things we really have to

2338
01:24:31,110 --> 01:24:29,199
find ways in which we can speak to each

2339
01:24:32,870 --> 01:24:31,120
other we can relate to each other that

2340
01:24:35,030 --> 01:24:32,880
we can think ahead

2341
01:24:37,910 --> 01:24:35,040
about what this means not only for

2342
01:24:41,830 --> 01:24:37,920
ourselves as individuals but ourselves

2343
01:24:43,270 --> 01:24:41,840
as a species as humanity

2344
01:24:45,910 --> 01:24:43,280
yeah i think that it

2345
01:24:47,590 --> 01:24:45,920
we think about the two uh sort of main

2346
01:24:49,830 --> 01:24:47,600
frames that we looked at both the sort

2347
01:24:52,229 --> 01:24:49,840
of first order first order effects and

2348
01:24:54,709 --> 01:24:52,239
the individual elements that play a role

2349
01:24:56,629 --> 01:24:54,719
and then the more sort of structural

2350
01:24:58,310 --> 01:24:56,639
frameworks around us

2351
01:24:59,830 --> 01:24:58,320
i think one thing i would suggest to

2352
01:25:01,270 --> 01:24:59,840
people is to

2353
01:25:02,149 --> 01:25:01,280
and this is true of anything in life but

2354
01:25:05,669 --> 01:25:02,159
definitely when it comes to the

2355
01:25:08,310 --> 01:25:05,679
phenomenon um you know try to develop

2356
01:25:10,470 --> 01:25:08,320
self-awareness you know try to be

2357
01:25:12,470 --> 01:25:10,480
aware of if something really excites you

2358
01:25:14,310 --> 01:25:12,480
if one hypothesis

2359
01:25:16,629 --> 01:25:14,320
excites you more than another

2360
01:25:18,070 --> 01:25:16,639
ask yourself why is it really that the

2361
01:25:20,550 --> 01:25:18,080
data

2362
01:25:22,950 --> 01:25:20,560
you know points in that direction

2363
01:25:25,030 --> 01:25:22,960
and or is it also that

2364
01:25:27,750 --> 01:25:25,040
something about you gets excited about

2365
01:25:29,830 --> 01:25:27,760
that hypothesis being true over another

2366
01:25:32,310 --> 01:25:29,840
and how objective are you being about

2367
01:25:34,709 --> 01:25:32,320
that and you know the the process begins

2368
01:25:36,390 --> 01:25:34,719
with being self-aware and honest with

2369
01:25:37,910 --> 01:25:36,400
yourself and

2370
01:25:40,310 --> 01:25:37,920
it's not that that's a bad thing if you

2371
01:25:42,229 --> 01:25:40,320
do favor one because you you like you

2372
01:25:44,629 --> 01:25:42,239
know you time traveling sounds really

2373
01:25:45,669 --> 01:25:44,639
cool so you like that hypothesis more

2374
01:25:47,910 --> 01:25:45,679
um

2375
01:25:49,510 --> 01:25:47,920
others want to get outside

2376
01:25:51,350 --> 01:25:49,520
about thinking about humanity you know

2377
01:25:53,189 --> 01:25:51,360
they're tired of that anthropocentric

2378
01:25:55,430 --> 01:25:53,199
kind of mentality so they want this to

2379
01:25:57,430 --> 01:25:55,440
be ets they want this to be

2380
01:26:00,149 --> 01:25:57,440
some other planetary civilization maybe

2381
01:26:01,590 --> 01:26:00,159
because secretly or only half honestly

2382
01:26:03,030 --> 01:26:01,600
half consciously

2383
01:26:04,709 --> 01:26:03,040
they think we're

2384
01:26:06,390 --> 01:26:04,719
going to hell in a hand basket and our

2385
01:26:07,270 --> 01:26:06,400
civilization needs help and so they're

2386
01:26:09,270 --> 01:26:07,280
like

2387
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:09,280
i don't see it coming from a god figure

2388
01:26:14,470 --> 01:26:11,760
so i'm going to now ascribe all of my

2389
01:26:16,870 --> 01:26:14,480
hopes and dreams on some sophisticated

2390
01:26:18,629 --> 01:26:16,880
alien intelligence coming forward and

2391
01:26:20,470 --> 01:26:18,639
and solving our energy problems and our

2392
01:26:23,350 --> 01:26:20,480
global warming problems and our you know

2393
01:26:25,350 --> 01:26:23,360
our warring problems and our worldview

2394
01:26:26,229 --> 01:26:25,360
warring problems our culture wars all of

2395
01:26:31,990 --> 01:26:26,239
that

2396
01:26:33,910 --> 01:26:32,000
never going to get to a point where

2397
01:26:35,189 --> 01:26:33,920
we're completely neutral and and you

2398
01:26:36,950 --> 01:26:35,199
know just sit

2399
01:26:39,030 --> 01:26:36,960
and say i don't commit to anything that

2400
01:26:40,149 --> 01:26:39,040
that can be its own sort of false

2401
01:26:42,229 --> 01:26:40,159
position

2402
01:26:43,830 --> 01:26:42,239
it's okay to have preferences and have

2403
01:26:45,750 --> 01:26:43,840
reasons for those preferences but just

2404
01:26:47,110 --> 01:26:45,760
make them self aware you know make be

2405
01:26:47,990 --> 01:26:47,120
conscious of them

2406
01:26:49,110 --> 01:26:48,000
um

2407
01:26:51,189 --> 01:26:49,120
and when it comes to the different

2408
01:26:53,270 --> 01:26:51,199
hypotheses and the cultural frameworks

2409
01:26:55,510 --> 01:26:53,280
piece i would just say try to make

2410
01:26:57,189 --> 01:26:55,520
yourself aware of the assumptions behind

2411
01:26:58,790 --> 01:26:57,199
those hypotheses

2412
01:27:00,790 --> 01:26:58,800
what things have to be true at a

2413
01:27:03,830 --> 01:27:00,800
foundational level for that hypothesis

2414
01:27:05,030 --> 01:27:03,840
to even be posited as a possibility you

2415
01:27:06,149 --> 01:27:05,040
know like

2416
01:27:07,910 --> 01:27:06,159
again

2417
01:27:10,149 --> 01:27:07,920
a lot of people looking at the et

2418
01:27:11,990 --> 01:27:10,159
hypothesis are working with a certain

2419
01:27:13,750 --> 01:27:12,000
physicalist paradigm

2420
01:27:16,470 --> 01:27:13,760
you know that i'm a big fan of

2421
01:27:18,709 --> 01:27:16,480
metaphysical idealism this notion that

2422
01:27:21,110 --> 01:27:18,719
ultimately reality is mind stuff and

2423
01:27:22,790 --> 01:27:21,120
that matter is sort of an epiphenomenon

2424
01:27:25,110 --> 01:27:22,800
of consciousness

2425
01:27:26,629 --> 01:27:25,120
if that's true how does that change the

2426
01:27:29,350 --> 01:27:26,639
assumptions and therefore how does that

2427
01:27:31,350 --> 01:27:29,360
change the possibilities and

2428
01:27:32,390 --> 01:27:31,360
so to try to be aware on this on a

2429
01:27:35,110 --> 01:27:32,400
personal level

2430
01:27:38,629 --> 01:27:35,120
become self aware and when it comes to

2431
01:27:42,070 --> 01:27:38,639
these hypothesis hypotheses be aware of

2432
01:27:43,590 --> 01:27:42,080
the assumptions that underlie them

2433
01:27:47,189 --> 01:27:43,600
well said

2434
01:27:48,629 --> 01:27:47,199
well i really enjoyed this topic it um

2435
01:27:50,950 --> 01:27:48,639
you know it doesn't help that doesn't

2436
01:27:53,270 --> 01:27:50,960
hurt to have as many tools as you can

2437
01:27:54,310 --> 01:27:53,280
have and bring those to bear on the

2438
01:27:56,629 --> 01:27:54,320
subject

2439
01:27:58,709 --> 01:27:56,639
and uh and also to

2440
01:28:01,030 --> 01:27:58,719
really get good at some of them and

2441
01:28:02,950 --> 01:28:01,040
maybe admit the ones that you're not

2442
01:28:07,030 --> 01:28:02,960
you know that's okay too we're all going

2443
01:28:08,950 --> 01:28:07,040
to be i think uh predisposed uh to being

2444
01:28:10,310 --> 01:28:08,960
experts in certain areas and that's why

2445
01:28:12,550 --> 01:28:10,320
we need each other that's why this

2446
01:28:15,669 --> 01:28:12,560
exercise really does involve

2447
01:28:18,310 --> 01:28:15,679
a group effort because we each bring

2448
01:28:19,910 --> 01:28:18,320
something valuable uh to this uh to to

2449
01:28:22,070 --> 01:28:19,920
this endeavor

2450
01:28:24,390 --> 01:28:22,080
so i want to say uh thank you to our

2451
01:28:26,229 --> 01:28:24,400
listeners who continue to tune in and

2452
01:28:28,470 --> 01:28:26,239
and get something out of the show and

2453
01:28:30,870 --> 01:28:28,480
and again we we do enjoy the comments

2454
01:28:32,550 --> 01:28:30,880
and feedback that you leave and i very

2455
01:28:34,470 --> 01:28:32,560
much look forward to

2456
01:28:35,990 --> 01:28:34,480
continuing this discussion

2457
01:28:38,709 --> 01:28:36,000
in the weeks ahead

2458
01:28:42,149 --> 01:28:38,719
uh you can find our show on youtube at

2459
01:28:45,030 --> 01:28:42,159
the exo academian youtube channel and

2460
01:28:47,669 --> 01:28:45,040
also under liminal frames uh through i

2461
01:28:49,669 --> 01:28:47,679
think pretty much any podcast platform

2462
01:28:52,310 --> 01:28:49,679
uh that that you can search under uh

2463
01:28:55,030 --> 01:28:52,320
we're we're everywhere uh and we will

2464
01:28:56,870 --> 01:28:55,040
continue this current conversation and

2465
01:28:58,629 --> 01:28:56,880
look forward to doing so

2466
01:28:59,750 --> 01:28:58,639
so as we close may the quality of our

2467
01:29:02,149 --> 01:28:59,760
questions

2468
01:29:05,030 --> 01:29:02,159
shaped by a desire for understanding

2469
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:05,040
enhance our journey of discovery

2470
01:29:09,350 --> 01:29:07,840
in may our travels broaden the sphere of

2471
01:29:12,229 --> 01:29:09,360
our consciousness

2472
01:29:13,990 --> 01:29:12,239
reminding us that new discoveries beget

2473
01:29:15,430 --> 01:29:14,000
new horizons

2474
01:29:17,669 --> 01:29:15,440
as always

2475
01:29:19,510 --> 01:29:17,679
adventure awaits

2476
01:29:23,660 --> 01:29:19,520
we'll see you next time on liminal

2477
01:29:27,470 --> 01:29:25,790
[Music]

2478
01:29:33,770 --> 01:29:27,480
[Laughter]